Suella Braverman thread 2

[AdamRyan]

As we filled up thread one eith our battling over whether it's feminist or racist to support Suella Braverman's weekend statements, I thought another would be good.

Here's some of what she said:

"What's clear is what we've seen is a practice whereby vulnerable white English girls, sometimes who are in care, sometimes in challenging circumstances, being pursued and raped and drugged and harmed by gangs of British Pakistani men who've worked in child abuse rings or networks. We've seen institutions and state agencies, whether it's social workers, teachers, the police turn a blind eye to these signs of abuse out of political correctness, out of fear of being called racist, out of fear of being called bigoted. And as a result, thousands, we are not talking small numbers, we are talking large numbers, thousands of children have had their childhoods robbed and devastated. And there are many of these perpetrators still running wild, behaving in this way. And it's now down to the authorities to track these perpetrators down, without fear or favour, relentlessly and bring them to justice"

Sunak has since rowed back on this and the Home Offices own research suggests there is not enough quality research to say any particular ethnicity is disproportionately involved in "grooming gangs"

Why do you think the Home Secretary used the words "vulnerable white English girls" to refer to the victims of grooming gangs. Why not say vulnerable girls, or even vulnerable white girls, what particularly is the purpose of saying English? How does one define English?

Why do you keep calling the film wings of heaven? It's called lady of heaven.

Because despite EU free movement in the last 25 years meaning today white girls in UK could be Polish or Slovakian etc, back in the 80s-00s when Pakistani grooming gangs got multiple green lights from British authorities, 99%+ would have been British/English, and Irish.

And it appears the Pakistani gangs deliberately targeted white girls, de facto British/English, in a campaign not just of sexual terror but racism as well.

What?

I think the use of English was intentional, because Braverman knows she has very limited support in Scotland and Wales. And because the kind of bigoted thinker who is very likely to be attracted to that rhetoric is also the kind of person who thinks English people are discriminated against in the UK.

But why does it matter what the nationality/ethnicity of the victim is? Why is the rape of a "white english" girl a bigger deal than a white polish girl, or a black english girl, or a brown Scottish girl?

Politicians choose their words carefully, I'm very interested why Braverman used those words.

Adam, politicians always look to the bigger picture.

But it so happens that brown Muslim men deliberately targeted white English girls.

And white Christian men did the same. And white atheists, Buddhists, etc etc.

However nothing diverts from the fact that brown Muslims from a limited number of countries incl Pakistan led a campaign of terror in selecting the "Kaffir" white English girls. Because they were worth less than their daughters, nieces, grandchildren, other girls in their communities.

My argument with Braverman isn't that she's highlighting it, or was careless with her factually incorrect language in saying Pakistanis groomed the most, it's that it's taken the Conservative govt 13 years to get it's head out it's arse and say something, anything.

I believe you're nitpicking if you object to the use of "English" here...a girl in care in Rotherham in the 80s and 90s was 99.9% likely to be English.

We can argue the intent of Braverman's words, not the facts of the matter.

Can you help me with something.
If I was born in England, have lived all my life in England am I English?

Of course. Why would you need to ask?

So if my parents were born in Poland, but I was born in England and have always lived in England, I am English. Good.

How about if I was born in Wales, but lived my whole life in England am I English?

England/Britain has always had an ambiguous relationship.

England has always dominated the other home nations, but English/British became interchangeable.

I used to consider myself British when I was younger. But deffo more English now.

Born in Wales/live in England? You can be Welsh, English, British.

However no-one born in Wales can be class.

...LOL, before I get into trouble.

All in all, there's no clarity here. My statement if I'd been an absolutely honest Braverman would have been.

"Both consecutive Labour and Conservative govts, national and local, and whole swathes of British civic society from politicians to councillors and mayors, to the police, social services, housing, and everyone directly connected to the care and plight of disadvantaged young girls, have failed as Child Sexual Exploitation and other acts of abuse, have been allowed to run riot, these girls failed by adults throughout British society.

And within this,l also, there were systemic failures also attributeable to political correct sensitivities where the direct targeting of young white English and British girls by mainly Pakistani and Bangladeshi men was allowed to run rampant as the authorities mentioned in the first part of my speech looked away or even conspired to allow it to flourish, using the excuse of accusations of racism or Islamaphobia, to prevent action to protect these girls.

I call on Labour, to all come together with us, jointly accept responsibility for this rot in society and our roles in not preventing or tackling it, make sure it never happens again, and also break the politically correct straitjacket that stops us even identifying perpetrator groups".

My argument with Braverman isn't that she's highlighting it, or was careless with her factually incorrect language in saying Pakistanis groomed the most, it's that it's taken the Conservative govt 13 years to get it's head out it's arse and say something, anything

She isn't doing "something, anything" she is launching a consultation.

I believe you're nitpicking if you object to the use of "English" here...a girl in care in Rotherham in the 80s and 90s was 99.9% likely to be English

Braverman wasn't talking about historical cases, she was about the here and now, her use of language was deliberate, she couldn't give a flying xxxx at rolling doughnut about any girl in care or anywhere else for that matter.

This is the woman that took advantage of Erasmus to further her education in Paris and then made damned sure none of our daughters and sons could do the same.

Born in Wales/live in England? You can be Welsh, English, British.

How about if I was born in France but have lived my whole life in England, am I English then?

How long is this game gonna go on? If you like Monty Python, weak tea, and dunk your toast into a runny boiled egg for breakfast, you're English.

My contention is that Braveman used the word English very deliberately in an attempt to create the image of a war between them and us.
Being able to identify what people mean by English is therefore quite important.
So far we have established that as long as one lives ones whole life in England one is English no matter which country one is born in.
I think we have also established that if one is born in England and lives ones whole life in another country one is also English.

The next stage to consider is if one is born in England and has lived 10% or 20% of ones life in another country is one English?

My good friend is from Tangiers, has lived here half of her life as a 45 year old.

I absolutely view her as English, British whatever.

How she views herself is probably a bit more complex, lol.

Jgw, I don't disagree there is stuff behind Braverman's comments. But that doesn't detract from my points.

Yes I agree
And "white English" vs "British pakistani" - it feels like a dog whistle that I can't fully hear.

Ex Attorney General and Home Secretary Suella Braverman used the victims of grooming gangs for political gain.

She is revolting. And so is her government.

Adam, I really think on the British v English thing, you're looking too hard.

English born white girls in 80s 90s England are "white English girls", very few from abroad.

Brown Pakistani Muslims choosing not to abuse and groom brown Muslim English girls because white English girls were Kuffir can reasonably be summarised as Pakistani Muslim men groom white English girls.

This remains a correct summary and description of the phenomenon.

I am sure my grandfather, born 98 years ago in England, and living (except for a spell abroad with the army) in England for all his life is not alone in not thinking that he is English, even though by your definition he is.
Why does the word English need to be in the sentence, why not just white girls, or British girls?

His generation did say British first, English second.

I'm sure this is generational, a lot to do with Empire.

I have no objection if English girls, British girls had been quoted.

But a big part of the grooming scandals was that they were also white, and deffo not the brown English girls that could also have been industrially victimised.

Interesting how you are peaked by the use of English over British.

Its use is deliberate.

Take a look around and see who associates themselves most closely with the Cross of St George.

I think you're looking way too hard and seeing what you want to see.

I'm done, going around in circles now.

It is not that hard to find the inflammatory language the Home Secretary used, and given her history not all that much of a surprise.

You appear to be ignoring "white English girls" vs "British Pakistani men" in favour of brown Pakistani Muslims

AFAIK the religion of the groomers has never been confirmed. And you are assuming the "kaffir" thing. There are plenty of paedophiles out there looking for vulnerable victims.

Why did Braverman use "english" in one descriptor and "british" in another?

You seem to be spending a lot of time justifying bravermans language
First she had to say English so we didn't think it was Polish or other white girls. For some reason that's relevant to you....

Then ignoring her use of British for the men, instead substituting brown.

Your language also betrays your thoughts.

She has to specify white English because otherwise she’d be committing to doing something about all the immigrant children going missing from care and being trafficked, which she had no intention of doing. It’s not just a dog whistle, it’s a spending limitation.