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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

EA petition EHRC are in favour of reviewing the definition of sex

222 replies

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 04/04/2023 15:12

Sex Matters update

The petition worked. The full letter from the EHRC is worth reading.

https://twitter.com/sexmattersorg/status/1643236702322847745?s=46&t=4ig9oxXX7RdmDKwsMsuh1Q

OP posts:
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ScrollingLeaves · 06/04/2023 13:47

WeeBisom · Today 11:05
Is it devastating because they can no longer muddy the waters and take female only spaces away from us ?

Yes.

UtopiaPlanitia · 06/04/2023 14:40

ResisterRex · 06/04/2023 13:46

Maya has collected some of the hyperbole. And the receipts:

www.forstater.com/time-for-civil-debate-yet/

That’s an eye-opening read Rex. Thanks for posting the link.

nilsmousehammer · 06/04/2023 15:32

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 06/04/2023 11:39

Have a look at his Twitter bio. He’s not an impartial observer on this topic. He has a clear vested interest. Mermaids Trustees

And as a former director perhaps things are now clearer on why advice from the EHRC in previous years has been confused and unable to recognise female people's rights as equal to male people with TQ+ identities.

nilsmousehammer · 06/04/2023 15:38

Helen Belcher: asking the EHRC: "how I, as a transwoman, would be able to live any form of public life if I was effectively barred from women's spaces?"

The issue being that many female people are now effectively barred from women's spaces by male people such as Helen, and Helen has had no problem with that whatsoever.

And that female people constitute half the population and have rights too.

Bienemajas · 06/04/2023 15:46

Helen Belcher: asking the EHRC: "how I, as a transwoman, would be able to live any form of public life if I was effectively barred from women's spaces?"

As a biological male she can use the men's spaces, can't she?

Chersfrozenface · 06/04/2023 15:49

Bienemajas · 06/04/2023 15:46

Helen Belcher: asking the EHRC: "how I, as a transwoman, would be able to live any form of public life if I was effectively barred from women's spaces?"

As a biological male she can use the men's spaces, can't she?

And campaign for third gender neutral spaces.

NotHavingIt · 06/04/2023 15:56

Bienemajas · 05/04/2023 15:50

I Wonder why parents talk about 'gender' reveals rather than 'sex' reveals?

Because this nonsene 'gender' business is largely a U.S invention.

NotHavingIt · 06/04/2023 15:56

...just like 'gender reveals'

NotHavingIt · 06/04/2023 15:58

Bienemajas · 05/04/2023 18:05

It is the fact that ‘gender’ was used initially that lowered the awareness of these changes being made in the first place.

Why has the English language changed how gender is used?

In German the word 'Geschlecht' (gender) continues to be used to define whether someone or something is male or female.

No, it denotes masculine or feminine attributes - not sex.

ResisterRex · 06/04/2023 16:00

Maya's link got me thinking about the way forward. I wondered if Iain Anderson had ever taken up any offers after his "big tent" chatter. I can't see any but this is the thing I remembered:

twitter.com/mensnetwork1/status/1587903432408666117?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

Were there signs that Stonewall would speak to groups like GMN, LGBA, Sex Matters and so on? My searches may have been poor so thought I'd see if anyone else ever saw anything.

Bienemajas · 06/04/2023 16:05

In German the word 'Geschlecht' (gender) continues to be used to define whether someone or something is male or female

Well, on all official forms it asks what your gender is - male or female!

No mention of 'sex'

Queenofscones · 06/04/2023 16:51

I've just applied for this year's canoeing licence and they want my gender. I'm just paddling up and down the river in a kayak.

Tinysoxx · 06/04/2023 17:14

Queenofscones · 06/04/2023 16:51

I've just applied for this year's canoeing licence and they want my gender. I'm just paddling up and down the river in a kayak.

To be fair I nearly drowned once as the sea canoe I was in didn't let me exit after capsizing as my hips were too big and at the ‘wrong angle’ apparently. I was a size 10/12 but do have big hips. Funny how I was the design fault.

Queenofscones · 06/04/2023 20:17

Oh, sit-ons only these days for me at sea because of similar issues — but yes, everything is designed for men.

I'm currently looking for a new van. I've done my back in on the old one, having to reach right over and down to put on the handbrake. They're designed for orang-utans with massive long arms.

ResisterRex · 07/04/2023 09:14

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

ResisterRex · 07/04/2023 09:34

Now I'm on the right thread...this screenshotted post from KM is quite wrongheaded and unhelpful. Perhaps the EHRC/Falkner will take Action, or just ignore it:

twitter.com/famedtrust/status/1644089225128574977?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

ScrollingLeaves · 07/04/2023 10:37

It shouldn’t be ignored. The way that statement is shown in quote marks will mean thousands of people take it as being true.

Those same people who take this as fact may well never read the actual letter she wrote.

ResisterRex · 07/04/2023 12:04

Article today by Michael Foran, who the TRAs were just yesterday trying to get sacked:

thecritic.co.uk/ministers-must-grasp-the-nettle-on-equality-law/

"There is no way to avoid grasping this nettle. The law needs definitions if it is to work."

The trying to get him sacked part, which isn't working:

twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1644283631056171010?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

twitter.com/proftomkins/status/1644053503524982802?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

twitter.com/robertcraig3/status/1644071733333311490?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

GailBlancheViola · 07/04/2023 12:57

Excellent article by Michael Foran.

Inevitable that the intellectually challenged TRAs would go for him.

ResisterRex · 07/04/2023 14:10

The counter petition has got to 100,000 signatures:

twitter.com/sexmattersorg/status/1644264513250656258?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

I wonder if they realise what this says in that petition? Namely, that they're riding a coach and horses through the law undermining men and women as distinct sex classes, thereby proving the need to clarify the EQA. But also they're saying they're protected under "sex". Which doesn't weaken the case for clarity around that definition. Bizarre wording:

"Currently, the Act protects trans people from discrimination on the basis of both sex and “gender reassignment”, regardless of whether they have undergone medical transition or hold a Gender Recognition Certificate. It can allow trans people to access single-sex spaces such as DV shelters, bathrooms and hospital wards."

nilsmousehammer · 07/04/2023 14:19

Which is exactly where it conflicts with women's rights, yes.

Freedom for men to access female single sex spaces is incompatible with female people having accessible female single sex spaces. It's one or the other.

1% of the population or 52%.

Floisme · 07/04/2023 14:20

Does that mean there will have to be a parliamentary debate now? I kind of hope so as I assume that would force Starmer to give his MPs some kind of direction, even if it's just to allow a free vote. It could show us just how much control he has over his own party, which will be very helpful in deciding where my general election vote goes.

MarshaBradyo · 07/04/2023 14:23

If this goes through is the GRC basically defunct?

A trans person made this claim earlier on radio

Foreversearch · 07/04/2023 15:54

I think parliament will have one debate for both petitions.

I don’t think the GRC is necessarily defunct because when the EA was written the intention was clearly that sex meant biological sex.

A lot of the wailing and nashing of teeth is because Stonewall, Mermaids etc. thought their push to get sex to mean gender identity was going so well and then the pesky women put a spanner in the works. It also undermines the spin they put on what the law means. For example I have seen Lady Haldane’s judgement interpreted as meaning anyone who has gone through gender reassignment is included in legal sex rather than the accurate, people with a GRC are included in legal sex - a very big difference. Getting sex confirmed as biological sex really undermines their aims.

As I’ve said before, I expect the clarification to the EA to be quick to do but longer term gender or gender identity will become a protected characteristic. There will be some re-writing of legislation e.g. I expect the gender pay gap to be renamed the sex pay gap, which is what it is just named at a time when sex and gender often meant the same thing.

What staggers me is the underlying sexism of the responses, I have yet to see a Stonewall, Mermaids, TRA etc. say, yes the EHRC are right Transmen with a GRC are not currently legally entitled to mat leave, mat pay and the pregnancy & maternity pc and this needs to be addressed. It has really reinforced that this is about entitled misogynistic males wanting to get into women’s spaces and sport. Transmen are there to be thrown under the bus to get what we want.

I did have one slightly bitchy thought, acting/media is one profession where male and female actors are often not paid the same but it’s hard to bring an equal pay case. If sex is clarified as being biological then poor Susy Izzard would have to get used to being paid less when wearing heels to negotiate their contract as they couldn’t use a male actor as a comparator, unless they put their flat shoes😂

nilsmousehammer · 07/04/2023 16:28

It is perfectly possible to provide accessible spaces and protections for legal equality for trans people.

It is not acceptable or possible to continue to permit male people to control female people's boundaries and exclude female people from services to serve their own interests. Or for male people to harm female people via their access to female services with no legal option to exclude them and put the needs of female people first.

Bring on the debate, but going on privileging male wants over female safety and equality has to stop. If the insanity controls the debate and forces through a continuation of this privilege and domination of females it will be a temporary success, this is issue is escalating and it will not go away.