Can MNHQ set up a new discussion category called Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

[PlanetLuna]

MN, will you please create a talk group/category of Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)?

MN appears to currently have only 2 feminism categories:
Feminism: chat
Feminism: sex & gender discussions

But the Feminism: sex & gender category on MN is predominantly GC, with its emphasis on trans exclusion ideology. Feminists who do not subscribe to those beliefs are often unwelcome and treated with derision and hostility in discussions. Certainly not always as some GC posters do enjoy open, intellectual discussions but often enough that engagement can be toxic & intimidating all around.

It is almost impossible for non-GC feminists to find inclusive/non-GC feminist discussions, and we have to wade through unpleasant (for us) GC threads while attempting to do so.

GC feminism dominates on UK parenting sites in particular. However, inclusive/non-GC feminism is extremely popular around the world (especially in places like the US, NZ, and AU) and in the UK among younger feminists and those who do not see trans rights as a threat to women & girls’ safety. Many UK feminists are non-GC but may feel silenced on MN.

The addition of another category will help open up and improve MN discussions while reducing the toxicity and hostility that many feminists on both sides experience in discussions.

So I propose the following feminism discussion categories:
Feminism: chat (general)
Feminism: sex & gender discussions (GC)
Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

@MNHQ

You are the person saying ‘bad trans women’. I don’t think all trans women are bad, I just know they aren’t women. The very fact they are trans women means they have to be men. But again it’s you bringing good/bad in to the discussion. It is you who keeps trying to put subjective analysis on to objective facts. I am trying to deal in objective facts.

@wontbesilencedbyyou the whole everyone thinks that they're right point has some validity but let me leave this with you, some people think that being a girl or woman is a test you can pass or fail. They may not all agree on the criteria and be hesitant to be pinned down on any specific metric but I disagree.

There are three concepts contained in the word woman (and three only) and they are all important

1. adult, the distinction between adults and children is important in law and safeguarding policies and should be protected and upheld
2. human, the internet is rife with dehumanising language directed at women, it is a reasonable act of self defence to resist pressure to switch to female/ birthing person / chestfeeder / uterus haver etc.
3. female

It is not a spectrum where you lose points and gain points for dress or behaviour - it is not helpful or meaningful to argue that a is more of a woman than b

someone who is a woman cannot fail the 'being a woman test' because it isn't a test. Someone who is a man cannot pass the 'being a woman test' no matter how sincere or hardworking, because it isn't a test. I rather like gnc people but you have to respect other people's boundaries and feelings too.

A man can feel like a genteel lady, or a foxy vixen, or say that he is demure and gentle. I'm not about to intrude or argue, if he says he's a lesbian I'll disagree because his feelings aren't the only feelings that matter.

No this is not a "point of view" this is facts. The earth is round. The sea is salty. Rain feels wet. Women are adult human females.

If you forego reality why bother even having a discussion? Women are purple balloons filled with glitter your argument that they human with bones and muscles and blood is just your POV!! Do you see my point?

Once you forego reality all reason is lost.

And how? How do you separate trans and non trans if you consider men women?

In Belgium they celebrated for the first time in history to have equal numbers of men and women in the federal government with 9 women and 11 men because one bloke wears frocks now.

I've seen discussions on UK media about the worrying trend that the number of "women" sexual predators are suddenly doubling. But men's crimes are written down as women crimes now if they claim to be a woman.

Its utterly ridiculous and insane

Just popping in to irrelevantly thank @PlanetLuna for this thread title. I keep seeing in Active, and it's made me laugh more than anything else today!

Yeah, let's have an extra feminist discussion board about sex & gender where sex is assumed to be unimportant to feminism, gender means a vague subjective feeling, and discussions are limited to agreement.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

But the stats do show tw offend at male rates or higher actually. So yhr research exists. Already proven over and over again

Plus dysphoria isn't required to be trans sats stonewall and uts transphobic to say so. Eddiis Suzy some days. So I'm trans or nb we all are! I like genderfuck

All the wannabee stasticians - why you don't you run the numbers on lesbian criminality so that you can position them in the line of sights next?

(Or, better still, why don't you spend the years training up properly so you are in a position to make informed commentary and analysis on the figures that exist, rather than highlighting your ignorance by making erroneous assertions and fallacious conclusions?)

Why don't you tell men to stop threatening women with rape and violence because we say no?

Well of course, another fallacious argument, no surprises on this board.

Why do you think my refusal to accept prejudice and bigotry again transwomen means that I am not' telling men to stop threatening women with rape and violence because we say no?'

Are you saying that the rate of convicted sex offenders who are trans women is or isn’t higher than the general male population? You are the statistics expert, expert away on that please.
Whilst you are at it could you please confirm the statistic that never in the entire history of the earth has an adult human male become an adult human female? Thanks

I dunno, it was your knee jerk aggressive response referencing lesbian offending rates (in relation to who knows what) that gave me the impression that you aren’t a fan of women, you know, the real kind.

You appear to be making an assertion.

The onus is on you to prove it.

I can tell you right now, no reputable statistician would concur with the statements alluding to transwomen criminality made on this thread.

They would recognise the paucity of data.

If you can find one that does, bring them out and let's see what they have to say.

Just a wild guess

And when you bring that expert out, we can set them the very similar task of examining lesbian criminality. Or any minority or your choosing, feel free to make a list for them.

Lots of lesbians of FWR, presumably happy to be examined as a demographic in the same fashion as transwomen.

I am beginning to wonder whether this thread isn't a late April Fool's prank.

Lots of suggestions eg what about using chat - no response

Instead selective responses (reiterations) of a position that there is only one true feminism and we are all sinners for not seeing the light.

And as a huge ego-fest it has also succeeded because some actual attempted to engage by using the @ response.

Its always the same. Everyone else is wrong. You dont agree with me. Therefore you are rightwing / homphobic / loud mouth / endless list. But never an attempt to contribute by starting a thread on an issue.

Just relentless antagonism.

Have we all been had?

‘I can tell you right now, no reputable statistician would concur with the statements alluding to transwomen criminality made on this thread.’ How can you know that when you claim you haven’t seen and are not aware of the data or the analysis?
‘They would recognise the paucity of data.’ What data? Sure you don’t know what I’m referring to? All very odd.
What about the second stat?

Ahhh, maybe look up the definition of paucity?! 😂

Lol! What’s your issue with data being collected about trans women? Why do you object to data being collected about that cohort? Lesbians are females. Why would their sexuality have a bearing on their rates of offending? Trans women are men, that’s the relevant issue in respect of their offending. The vast majority of crime is committed by men, are you not aware of that?

Lol I know what paucity means you silly goose.

You go for it, absolutely!

Then we can apply the same naive, layman and fallacious analysis to data on lesbian criminality, and we can have a brand new demographic to demonise!

Won't it be fun!

Who is demonising anyone? Why is looking at the facts and numbers such an affront to you? Again what bearing do you think someone’s sexuality would likely have on offending rates?

76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

MOJ statistics, 2019. Are you saying the Ministry of Justice is incapable of producing data on its own prison populations? Tsk.

Lots more stats, with rebuttals of rebuttals, by professionals who know what they're doing, here. Enjoy: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Jeez, this is day 2 of the easter hols, things are gonna get lively in the naughty corner for a couple of weeks.

You can't arrange a meeting on a Saturday if nobody can agree what a Saturday is OP.
Here, people really know what Saturday means & it's buzzing.

Feminism (the real stuff where people know what a woman is) already got first shoved in a corner so it wasn't out in the wider world of Mumsnet, judged too true even for AIBU most times as it was giving hurty feelz to fragile menz, then split AGAIN so the 'meanies' weren't posting in the graveyard that is now Feminism Chat.

Go post in Feminism Chat, where everybody agrees that all days of the week are equally valid as Saturdays if they want to identify as Saturdays, even though there are definitely seven different ones & one is called Sunday, but some Saturdays feel like they are Wednesdays & others want to call themselves the Midweek, while a few even want to be referred to as the Weekend.
Someone will get back to you if you hang out in there long enough, but who knows which day it will be.

You broke it.
You fix it.

I may have hit the champagne a bit tonight.
That made sense in my head when I was thinking it.

Women have been discriminated against for years before anyone thought women could be anything but XX

Yes, because men have wanted to control access to our uteruses. All sex discrimination and male violence against women has its roots in men's desires to control who we bear children to, which means controlling our bodies, which means controlling our whole lives.

Even if we do settle that debate- what next? Are men going to magically stop discriminating against us? Will we stop getting mansplained to, raped and trafficked disproportionately?

No, because they can tell the difference between the women and the males who want to be women, and will carry on treating the women with the contempt they've always shown us. It's rare for a woman to opt out of sex-based oppression successfully. A film called "Boys Don't Cry", based on the true rape and murder of Teena Brandon, demonstrates what happens when a woman tries and fails to opt out of female oppression by presenting as a man.

Are you actually taking the piss op🤣 there is only one type of woman the biological type! Every other "type" is just a man in a dress