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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dr who

111 replies

Begbiessister · 03/04/2023 21:31

I'm not happy about this. I don't think this is helpful for kids. Is that just me?

www.doctorwho.tv/news-and-features/jinkx-monsoon-joins-cast-doctor-who-series

OP posts:
MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 04/04/2023 08:22

I'm not sure how I feel about this... I think I'm on the side of "no thank you" but maybe only because, as PPs have pointed out, all the main characters are now played by male actors.

OhVicIveFallen · 04/04/2023 08:23

Isn't the new companion to Ncuti a woman though? And by woman I mean an actual biological woman.

OhVicIveFallen · 04/04/2023 08:26

Million Gibson. I've googled her and can't find any info on her beng trans?

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 04/04/2023 08:27

OhVicIveFallen · 04/04/2023 08:23

Isn't the new companion to Ncuti a woman though? And by woman I mean an actual biological woman.

Yes you're right. I forgot about her! She was in Corrie.

JustSpeculation · 04/04/2023 08:33

Davies is a good showrunner, much better than the dire Chibnall, and the idea of TV being "good for you" in a po faced way has been ingrained in the BBC since the dawn of time. You'll take your drag and like it! So despite the unpromising early signs, it's still possible that DW will return to something watchable.

aSofaNearYou · 04/04/2023 08:43

I'm growing increasingly disappointed about this. I was cautiously optimistic about RTD's return as it was my favourite show when he was at the helm and has been rubbish since he left. But so far, besides the casting of the companion, it all just seems to be about LGBTQ+ representation.

I'm fine with a bit of that and was expecting it, but it's all going that way so far, feels too much and like it's just being used to further that cause rather than anyone having much interest in the actual story and character.

Exl · 04/04/2023 08:46

The production team of Doctor Who is obsessed with trans activism, I do think it’s a great shame how they’ve taken a popular children’s show and turned it into a vehicle for a controversial political agenda that’s inappropriate for children. We don’t watch it anymore.

PuttingDownRoots · 04/04/2023 08:50

Dr Who has had gender fluidity in its characters since the modern reboot 20 years ago.

OhVicIveFallen · 04/04/2023 08:57

PuttingDownRoots · 04/04/2023 08:50

Dr Who has had gender fluidity in its characters since the modern reboot 20 years ago.

Probably only Captain Jack though? Who else?

I liked Capaldi's era, he really grew into the role. Jolie was not good, but that wasn't her fault.

RTD's It's a Sin was phenomenal so I have high hopes for the new series. Although the fact that there is only one female actor so far isn't great is it? And as a previous poster said, no transmen to be seen, what with them being female and all 🙄

aSofaNearYou · 04/04/2023 08:58

PuttingDownRoots · 04/04/2023 08:50

Dr Who has had gender fluidity in its characters since the modern reboot 20 years ago.

Yes, but it wasn't the core focus of the show.

RoyalCorgi · 04/04/2023 09:03

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 04/04/2023 08:22

I'm not sure how I feel about this... I think I'm on the side of "no thank you" but maybe only because, as PPs have pointed out, all the main characters are now played by male actors.

RTD said he deliberately cast gay actors to play gay characters in It's a Sin because he didn't think gay characters should be played by heterosexuals.

He thinks it's fine, however, for female characters to be played by men.

So, a hypocrite and a misogynist - like so many of the rest of them. I dare say that one day they'll be able to get rid of female actors altogether, and it will be just like the good old days of the sixteenth century.

Chersfrozenface · 04/04/2023 09:04

PuttingDownRoots · 04/04/2023 08:50

Dr Who has had gender fluidity in its characters since the modern reboot 20 years ago.

Only the main character, who is an alien anyway, and one member of the same species (Gallifreyan).

Not amongst the human characters.

pickledandpuzzled · 04/04/2023 09:05

Was Captain Jack gender fluid? I thought he was bi. And a tart, basically. He flirted, smarted and charismatic-ed his way round everyone, in a completely different relationship style to the doctor.

Or maybe that was just in Torchwood.

He was a fabulous character. Though the actor gives me the creeps.

pickledandpuzzled · 04/04/2023 09:06

As for DW, DH will be gutted. He has every episode since the year dot. He's an original DW geek. He won't like this.

PuttingDownRoots · 04/04/2023 09:09

Captain Jack talked about being pregnant in the past!
The other time Lords change sex too.

Gender fluidity was mentioned in series 1. (I have a very bizarre memory for random recall. Great for trivia, but can't remember where I left my glasses!)

A couple of characters doesn't make it a main focus.

Ofcourseshecan · 04/04/2023 09:10

DemiColon · 04/04/2023 01:20

I am totally fine with any actor playing any role so long as it convinces me of whatever I need to be convinced of.

The problem I have with Dr Who is that their casting, like their plot lines, mainly seem to be a vehicle for virtue signalling and finger wagging at the viewers. It's annoying and patronizing and, as we can all see, leads to truly awful scripts.

This seems to fit right in with that.

I keep wondering how long they can keep the show going with it's abysmal viewing numbers. They seem to realize they are doing something wrong, but every time they try and make a change they double down on the things that are actually driving people away.

I've found it really interesting how writers who I know have some real ability, like RTD, can, under the influence of modern id pol, produce such utter shit, and think it's good. It's very weird, like it's melted their brains.

I agree with all of this. Plus I dislike drag more now that I’ve recognised it as ‘womanface’ (previously it just struck me as a bit creepy). And I detest queer-theory propaganda being sold to children, whether in school or as entertainment.

JarByTheDoor · 04/04/2023 09:10

Yeah Jodie Whittaker was not good.

Even if her stories hadn't been so poorly written (at least partly because of the need to educate — I mean, Doctor Who has always been a bit preachy and didactic, but a good example of where that detrimentally affected writing was series 12 of the new series, which felt it had to educate us about the little-known phenomena of anthropogenic climate change and pollution, and how terrible they are, giving us both "Orphan 55" with a completely non-innovative version of the "it was Earth all along" twist, and the even heavier-handed "Praxeus"), and her companions hadn't been bland as hell and characterised almost solely based on the convenience of the plot (Ryan's dyspraxia showing up only sporadically and at emotionally-useful junctures, for example), it seemed like the direction she'd been given was "Imagine you're a particularly gormless and ebullient Cbeebies presenter. Okay, great! Now remove all remaining intelligence, social skills, analytical ability, courage, emotional stability, gravitas, and nous. Brilliant. Now give yourself the attention span of a stoned budgie and a memory like a colander with bullet holes."

Even the bits where we're supposed to marvel at how smart she is, we're just told she's doing something smart, rather than being impressed by her smartness through the plot and writing (which, admittedly, would require smart writers), and the character seems to have no idea what she's doing and to be surprised by what she's managed (which doesn't stop her informing us all "I'm really clever, me").

An example of the weird characterisation is how they decided, for some reason (not at ALL because they thought adding a bit of neurodiversity-signalling bullshit would ingratiate them with the fanbase, oh no), to unorganically shoehorn in extra bits of autistic stereotypes to the Doctor's character, and just flat-out have her randomly interject "I'm so socially awkward, me, haha, look at me, I'm just not good with people because I'm socially awkward and don't know how to empathise or interact with humans!" every so often. I also suspect they were afraid of allowing a female Doctor to be empathetic, or good with people, to the extent male ones were, for fear of appearing to stereotype a female Doctor.

I'm aware the Doctor has always had some little alien quirks in previous incarnations, and found human behaviours different or even ridiculous, but the character has a lot of experience interacting with humans and supposedly an inconceivable level of intelligence including the type used in dealing with others, and any oddness has been down to not caring whether he seems odd to this particular human, rather than social ineptitude. And anyway, just telling us "Ooh I'm socially inept, me" is appalling writing.

Different Doctors have had different personalities, presumably (in-universe) because of different brain structures or something, so some might have been more irascible, some more enthusiastic, some more sardonic, some more playful, and so on. But past learning, experiences and memories are supposed to be the same, fundamental values like compassion and belief in human potential and distaste for violence are supposed to be the same, and they should be identifiably the same basic "soul" (for want of a better word), to some extent. Jodie Whittaker's Doctor wasn't, IMO. And she's a fantastic actor; if they'd wanted to write her as a believable, admirable, interesting Doctor, she'd have risen to that, I'm sure.

And it's not that a woman can't play that character — I thought Jo Martin and the way her Doctor was written were very good, and I wish we'd seen three seasons of her Doctor instead. It wasn't that she was "acting like a man" in some way, she was just more plausibly the same "soul" as previous incarnations, IMO.

OhVicIveFallen · 04/04/2023 09:16

Jo Martin was excellent as the doctor. Just brought more gravitas to the role which really showed up Jodie Whittaker tbh. Jodie's doctor made her sonic screwdriver from scratch in the first episode and then never made anything again! Wasted opportunity imo.

JaninaDuszejko · 04/04/2023 09:32

Do you have a problem with the transgirl playing Rose?

Yasmin Finney was in Heartstopper and is a very talented actor/actress (not sure how she prefers to be refered to). I'm looking forward to seeing her in the Doctor Who 60th anniversary specials with DT and CT.

A drag act though? Not so excited about that at all. Although hopefully it'll just be a small part, Doctor Who does tend to have lots of very well known actors in single episode roles so if it's like that it's fine.

Also, RTD thinks only gay actors should play gay characters? Does that mean he thinks only straight actors should play straight characters? It's like going back to the 50s when Rock Hudson couldn't publicly admit he was gay or people would have thought he'd be unconvincing in romantic lead roles.

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 04/04/2023 09:45

RoyalCorgi · 04/04/2023 09:03

RTD said he deliberately cast gay actors to play gay characters in It's a Sin because he didn't think gay characters should be played by heterosexuals.

He thinks it's fine, however, for female characters to be played by men.

So, a hypocrite and a misogynist - like so many of the rest of them. I dare say that one day they'll be able to get rid of female actors altogether, and it will be just like the good old days of the sixteenth century.

It does smack of misogyny doesn't it!

Is the "new" Rose a transwoman, or a woman? (Obviously I know the actor is trans, but the character)

senua · 04/04/2023 09:52

Is the "new" Rose a transwoman, or a woman? (Obviously I know the actor is trans, but the character)
I lost track of Dr Who and its plots a long time ago. I can't believe that they would reuse a name; are old Rose and new Rose the same person, in some wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey way?

aSofaNearYou · 04/04/2023 10:00

senua · 04/04/2023 09:52

Is the "new" Rose a transwoman, or a woman? (Obviously I know the actor is trans, but the character)
I lost track of Dr Who and its plots a long time ago. I can't believe that they would reuse a name; are old Rose and new Rose the same person, in some wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey way?

My suspicion is that new Rose will be Donna's daughter - with the implication being that some of her repressed memories are bleeding out.

OhVicIveFallen · 04/04/2023 10:17

aSofaNearYou · 04/04/2023 10:00

My suspicion is that new Rose will be Donna's daughter - with the implication being that some of her repressed memories are bleeding out.

Yes this. And then Donna somehow gets all of her memories back or something? But without her mind completely cracking. Who knows 🤷‍♀️ I find it a bit sad that they had to get tennant and Tate back to being in the viewers again, but also pleased because I loved them together!

Zodfa · 04/04/2023 10:53

Let's see what it looks like in practice, shall we? What the part actually is, and whether the actor is actually appropriate for it or not.

I wouldn't set too much stock by "major role". Doctor Who has a lot of form in bigging up actors in what turn out to be rather small roles because they are big names or because of their minority status.

Somehow a lot of people on both sides have convinced themselves that drag queens and transwomen are really the same thing. So all the pro-trans lot can get all excited over this thinking it somehow makes them / the show all in support of trans people - while all the people who are opposed to the trans agenda get annoyed.

I imagine a lot of actual trans people are not at all on-board with drag. If you just want to live your life as a male in a dress and call yourself a "woman" then it's hardly helpful if other males are putting on dresses and calling themselves women in the expectation that they will be laughed at.

As for proper trans characters like the new Rose - I really don't like the trans movement, but I think it's going too far to say trans people shouldn't be on TV. Although I am worried about excessively hagiographic portrayals - and this one looks like it's probably going to be celebrating teenage transition in a way I doubt will be helpful. But again, let's wait and see what we get. It's entirely possible they've shot themselves in the foot here: that the part will be so poorly acted it will only highlight the stunt casting, or that for some other reason your average viewer will come away thinking new Rose ridiculous and not be warmed to trans agenda in the slightest.

I reckon RTD is one of those late middle-aged blokes who doesn't really understand the trans agenda and has misled himself into thinking that trans stuff is something he has to include to be "progressive". (Compare Steven Moffat's somewhat dodgy "representations" of lesbianism.) RTD's previous Doctor Who episodes have loads and loads of LGB stuff, but I think there's only one reference to trans issues and it isn't a complimentary one: it's Lady Cassandra, a villain whose hopeless vanity has led her to incredible extremes of body modification, mentioning in passing how she used to be a little boy. The transhumanism stuff in Years and Years can easily be read as a (negative) commentary on transgender issues, and the perils of teen transition in particular. He's very late to the pro-trans party.

IvyTwines · 04/04/2023 11:02

I'm really surprised Davies isn't more cautious about the messages he's sending to gay youths. Maybe he thinks homosexuality is merely a staging post while the technology catches up for transitioning, and the next generation of effeminate boys will trans to girls? In Years and Years there was an introverted girl character who became 'transhuman', which was portrayed as a positive thing, and a rainbowy child who transitions (and whose storyline was tellingly billed by the BBC as "the most radical and exciting of all.").

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