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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What do transgender women/girls think it is to be a man?

154 replies

ValuePartnership · 01/04/2023 03:18

I have tried and tried in every place to find out what exactly it is (specifically) that makes women, and especially girls, feel they are "really" men? Does anyone have any idea? I am a man and would love to know what, apart from some very general conviction (asserted but never made specific); wanting to wear male clothing; wanting male "body shape"; represents becoming a "man" to trans women (or girls). Such ideas are supposed to match the reality of having a male identity. I do not have any supposed cis-gender identity, but I know what things have been central to living as a boy and then a man - and it's nothing like anything I have read about trans men. I never thought being a man depended on others seeing me as man; I never thought about my body shape; most of the clothes I wear (and have always worn) are very ordinary and could just as easily have been worn by a woman. The big big deal for me all my life (I am in my 60s) has been the way I experience sexual excitement and arousal: my body will register it (and sometimes against my wishes) through penile erection; the next has been the experience of orgasm deep in my body (prostate gland); then how vulnerable to attack (friendly or violenbt) by other males, or my own clumsiness, my testicles made and make me. Only then came comparisons - I was aware of, generally to a high degree, being taller and stronger than females. Finally, I learned that I could become a father (with a growing realistion I was expected to do so); that I had a distribution of body hair (more than some other men and less than others) that affected my appearance. It seems to me that even if you think you are a man, you have no idea what being a man is like unless you are one. Hence nobody ever says. Anyone able to help with ideas?

OP posts:
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ArcticSkewer · 01/04/2023 03:59

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/31/woman-trans-man-gender

This female thinks it is about rejecting womanhood.

I've interpreted it that way myself.
it's a circular argument ... what is womanhood after all ... but we seem to be in the arena of masculinity and femininity.

I am not trans but perhaps I could have been, if raised now. I don't want what femininity offers. I like the freedom and power I see in masculinity. Happily I sensibly ignored labels based on biology as sexist tropes so no need to take testosterone and cut my breasts off.

Another aspect I have heard of before is of hiding female body parts after a past with sexual abuse. You can see why you might turn on your body if you had experience of body related trauma.

I stopped trying to be a woman – and I felt resurrected, fully myself for the first time | Jackson King

My decision to come out as a trans man was lifechanging, says freelance journalist Jackson King

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/31/woman-trans-man-gender

ValuePartnership · 01/04/2023 04:01

By the way, I am 100% supportive of women on Mumsnet and elsewhere who oppose the insane gender identity ideology, I support "gender critical" women and am horrified by the things done to children and young people at places like Tavistock GIDS. My question is born our of genuine frustration - how can all this happen without anyone saying what they actually think they want to become?

OP posts:
ValuePartnership · 01/04/2023 04:09

ArcticSkewer · 01/04/2023 03:59

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/31/woman-trans-man-gender

This female thinks it is about rejecting womanhood.

I've interpreted it that way myself.
it's a circular argument ... what is womanhood after all ... but we seem to be in the arena of masculinity and femininity.

I am not trans but perhaps I could have been, if raised now. I don't want what femininity offers. I like the freedom and power I see in masculinity. Happily I sensibly ignored labels based on biology as sexist tropes so no need to take testosterone and cut my breasts off.

Another aspect I have heard of before is of hiding female body parts after a past with sexual abuse. You can see why you might turn on your body if you had experience of body related trauma.

That explains a great deal about the lack of specifics. And the article in the "Guardian" was indeed what prompted my posting. But given the nature of male life (physical and mental) - just like the core realities of women's bodies and experience - it's absurd to think anyone can "become" another gender; and ignoiring the realities is criminal.

OP posts:
nepeta · 01/04/2023 05:38

Based on what I have seen online, some wish to have the male body, but many seem to wish to escape being female.

The same question can be asked about male people who identify as women, and the answers are equally unconvincing.

But I'm not sure if I know how it feels to be a woman, and I have been one since the age of maturity. I feel like a human being with a certain age, a certain sex, a certain personality, and a specific set of other characteristics which partly make me what I am today, such as life experiences.

Some of those are linked to my sex, of course, but they don't define the entirety of me and aren't necessarily any more important than some other life experiences I have had.

There's something rigid and retrogressive about all this. Why can't we let individuals be individuals? Why is personality now forced into tiny boxes? How is this progressive at all?

NurseCranesRolodex · 01/04/2023 05:40

Internalised homophobia, sex class based stereotypes, females being sexually objectified all through life and being aware of the 'male gaze' from a very young age, the porn culture, 'gender identity' politics, Autism (5000% increase in trans identifying females with autism) , fear of murder or rape by a male, social media and last but not least, living in a fucking Patriarchy.

GrinAndVomit · 01/04/2023 06:23

Internalised misogyny.

thatsn0tmyname · 01/04/2023 07:13

Knowing the trans children we have at school, they are unhappy with some aspects of their female life, are going through puberty and not comfortable with this, are on the autistic spectrum and are trying on a male identity for size to see if it helps. One started taking testosterone at 15 which is a worry if 'he' detransitions.

RosaBonheur · 01/04/2023 07:19

Yeah I think they just don't want to be women.

twitterexile · 01/04/2023 07:23

thatsn0tmyname · 01/04/2023 07:13

Knowing the trans children we have at school, they are unhappy with some aspects of their female life, are going through puberty and not comfortable with this, are on the autistic spectrum and are trying on a male identity for size to see if it helps. One started taking testosterone at 15 which is a worry if 'he' detransitions.

Ex-teacher and agree. ASD features heavily as does poor mental health.

pantsforteaagain · 01/04/2023 07:23

My daughter said it gave her a fuzzy feeling inside when people mistook her for a boy (after she cut her hair short). She took this to be a message from her authentic self.

ilikeyarn · 01/04/2023 07:24

I agree with the OP. You can't know what it's like to be a man unless you are a man. My guess is that girls suffering from gender dysphoria have a problem with expectations placed on women. For instance, many of us women don't like wearing a bra because it's uncomfortable but we are required to wear one whenever we go out. Other expectations are more subtle. For instance, we often couch our language to make it less blunt. We don't want to sound too certain of our beliefs because it creates jealousy in other women.

For women, it IS important others see us as being feminine. It is a bad day for a woman if she walks into a restroom and other women gasp even slightly because her haircut or some other feature have given them the idea she is a man.

I feel every bit a woman but certain things bother me, such as the expectation I would want to wear makeup, high heels, nylons, bras, perfume, impractical clothing, or jewellery. So when I see transgendered women all dressed up, I'm astonished they are picking the worst parts of being a woman to emulate!

The best part of being a woman is leaving computer problems and house problems to men. I'm absolutely relieved I don't have to design bridges, fix cars, fight fires, fight wars, fight crime, deal with scary animals or lift heavy things.
If there's a mousetrap to be set, I ask a man to do it. For me, being a woman is about avoiding responsibility whenever possible, though I do still have many responsibilities.

As for the OP, I consider all men as basically cursed by their biology. It must be a living hell to think of sex every ten seconds and constantly react to sexual stimuli physically. I see men as basically handicapped and distracted. It's a wonder they accomplish as much as they do.

Meceme · 01/04/2023 07:32

ValuePartnership · 01/04/2023 04:09

That explains a great deal about the lack of specifics. And the article in the "Guardian" was indeed what prompted my posting. But given the nature of male life (physical and mental) - just like the core realities of women's bodies and experience - it's absurd to think anyone can "become" another gender; and ignoiring the realities is criminal.

I read that article too and it really made me think. I could fully understand and support the desire to 'opt out of' womanhood.
That is, to opt out of the womanhood that society demands: body, dresses, long hair, certain behaviour patterns because these gendered expectations do not describe how the subject of the article experiences their life.
Accepting that these do not describe you and opting out of the need to conform is a positive and healthy thing. I have never felt so balanced and happy since I stopped giving a fuck what other people thought of me and just did what makes me happy.
However I am still aware that while I might not be societys idea of feminine, my sex is still female and while I can opt out of gendered womanhood I cannot opt into manhood. I am a gender non- conforming woman not a man and that's great.

backinthebox · 01/04/2023 07:53

@ilikeyarn “The best part of being a woman is leaving computer problems and house problems to men. I'm absolutely relieved I don't have to design bridges, fix cars, fight fires, fight wars, fight crime, deal with scary animals or lift heavy things.
If there's a mousetrap to be set, I ask a man to do it. For me, being a woman is about avoiding responsibility whenever possible”

Eh?!!! I asked my DH the other day to make the mashed potatoes while I did other bits of the dinner, and he replied ‘I am exercising learned helplessness with mashed tatties.’ Wtaf? He had decided that just not making them meant I would do it instead.

Cooking for your family, setting a mouse tray, these things can be done by either a man or woman. Genderizing such tasks is what leads to some of the trouble we are in today. I railed for years at school against the unfairness that girls did home economics while the boys did woodwork. There is no wonder girls are rejecting ‘womanhood’ when it would seem that womanhood from some perspectives means you can’t do manly things.

Fwiw, I fly 300 ton aircraft for a living, deal with scary animals on a daily basis, own and drive a HGV, can do plumbing and woodwork and have built entire buildings from scratch, and can read a map without a Satnav. I don’t wear make up or jewellery, in fact I am usually in combat pants and boots, and can’t stand pink. I am practically a man! But I know I am not. I would much rather women and girls be empowered to normalise doing ‘man things’ than to try and identify their way out of their oppression.

Meceme · 01/04/2023 07:58

Life is much better if we don't have 'man things' and 'woman things' just things that need/want doing and we all do them.

pickledandpuzzled · 01/04/2023 08:00

Interesting.

I am embarrassed to say DH fails in some way to match up to what I see as a man. It took me a while to come to terms with that. He isn't bothered.

I had to step up with practical tasks like putting up shelves and pictures, decorating etc. I tend to leave the drill to him as I hate the noise, but rarely ask for anything drill related.

The hoover is also too noisy for me, but seems to give him great satisfaction.

He's stepped up in recent years on the carrying and lifting front at least.
And he does all the work involving finance.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 01/04/2023 08:06

*@@ilikeyarn

For women, it IS important others see us as being feminine.

Not for me. I hope people see me as female, female is a good, authentic thing to be. Feminine is irrelevant at best, oppressive at worst.

I wear a bra because I'd be not just uncomfortable but in pain if I tried to move round much without one. - All the rest -take it or leave it.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 01/04/2023 08:09

The best part of being a woman is leaving computer problems and house problems to men.

Gosh. I guess you’re being flippant, but this is a concept that never crosses my mind. There’s literally nothing that my sex stops me from doing other than the things requiring physical strength or height (I’m a shorty).

I grew up in the 1980s though where it was the norm amongst my peers to be gender stereotype non-conforming. Sisters were very much doing it for themselves.

The regression and the embracing of the helpless identikit young female appearance is upsetting. It’s no wonder many young women want no part of it.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 01/04/2023 08:10

^I'm absolutely relieved I don't have to design bridges, fix cars, fight fires, fight wars, fight crime, deal with scary animals or lift heavy things.
If there's a mousetrap to be set, I ask a man to do it. For me, being a woman is about avoiding responsibility whenever possible, though I do still have many responsibilities.^

oh ffs what does having a penis do with being an engineer or a fire officer or a cop or any of the other stuff? As for needing a man to set a mousetrap? what the actual? It's like Theresa May and her putting out the bins is a boy's job nonsense.

Meceme · 01/04/2023 08:13

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 01/04/2023 08:06

*@@ilikeyarn

For women, it IS important others see us as being feminine.

Not for me. I hope people see me as female, female is a good, authentic thing to be. Feminine is irrelevant at best, oppressive at worst.

I wear a bra because I'd be not just uncomfortable but in pain if I tried to move round much without one. - All the rest -take it or leave it.

Totally agree. Female is what I am by courtesy of biology. Nothing wrong with that. Totally equal to male.

Feminine is a set of regressive rules to police behaviours. Complete crap.

If you want to have long swishy hair and wear heels and mini skirts, feel free. But do it because you enjoy it not to fit in with society's idea of 'Feminine'.

BluebellBlueballs · 01/04/2023 08:17

I'm a woman and I enjoy clothes makeup even heels etc but absolutely refute the suggestion that this makes me a woman! What a load of crap... men have been dressing flamboyant for centuries look at the c17th aristocracy, 'dandies' nd more recently glam rock era, Bowie, boy George etc.

It's fun (for me and many others, not everyone) to do artistic self expression through clothing, makeup, hairstyles etc. Why should men miss out on the fun. Understandably many don't want to but hats off to those that do, so long as they dont see that as their inner authentic womanhood or any other such bollocks.

Boy George had the right idea. I believe he and Marilyn have been slated for not being trans supportive by 'those who must always be right ' on this issue.

GrinAndVomit · 01/04/2023 08:22

I'm a woman and I enjoy clothes makeup even heels etc but absolutely refute the suggestion that this makes me a woman!

Well of course because the only logical conclusion of this line of thinking is that if you don’t enjoy clothes, make up and heels then you’re not a woman.

I’ve seen many, many social media posts about Dylan Mulvaney (possibly spelt incorrectly). His supporters almost always counteract any criticism of him but stating he is more of a woman than any of his female critics because of this very thing. It’s so regressive and sexist.

MarinaRhinella · 01/04/2023 08:30

I think it is fairly pointless to even ask them what they think being a man is. My daughter says "I am not a woman".
So I ask, "What does it feel like to be a woman?"
"Well, I don't know because I am not one."
"So, if you don't know what feeling like a woman feels like, how do you know you don't feel like a woman feels?"
No answer for that one.

Nightmare2022 · 01/04/2023 08:33

It’s not really about being a man for these girls, it’s about not being a woman. They don’t want periods (who does?), don’t want sexual attention from men, don’t want breasts.

GrinAndVomit · 01/04/2023 08:35

Nightmare2022 · 01/04/2023 08:33

It’s not really about being a man for these girls, it’s about not being a woman. They don’t want periods (who does?), don’t want sexual attention from men, don’t want breasts.

Yes. Also, want to be seen as strong, as powerful, as having autonomy and a valued presence which they do not think women can possibly be/ have.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/04/2023 08:35

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