What do transgender women/girls think it is to be a man?

[ValuePartnership]

I have tried and tried in every place to find out what exactly it is (specifically) that makes women, and especially girls, feel they are "really" men? Does anyone have any idea? I am a man and would love to know what, apart from some very general conviction (asserted but never made specific); wanting to wear male clothing; wanting male "body shape"; represents becoming a "man" to trans women (or girls). Such ideas are supposed to match the reality of having a male identity. I do not have any supposed cis-gender identity, but I know what things have been central to living as a boy and then a man - and it's nothing like anything I have read about trans men. I never thought being a man depended on others seeing me as man; I never thought about my body shape; most of the clothes I wear (and have always worn) are very ordinary and could just as easily have been worn by a woman. The big big deal for me all my life (I am in my 60s) has been the way I experience sexual excitement and arousal: my body will register it (and sometimes against my wishes) through penile erection; the next has been the experience of orgasm deep in my body (prostate gland); then how vulnerable to attack (friendly or violenbt) by other males, or my own clumsiness, my testicles made and make me. Only then came comparisons - I was aware of, generally to a high degree, being taller and stronger than females. Finally, I learned that I could become a father (with a growing realistion I was expected to do so); that I had a distribution of body hair (more than some other men and less than others) that affected my appearance. It seems to me that even if you think you are a man, you have no idea what being a man is like unless you are one. Hence nobody ever says. Anyone able to help with ideas?

Was scrolling Instagram this morning and saw this video - the answer to this question straight from a trans person’s mouth.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqTf0T-pxzD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

So apparently being a woman has quite a bit to do with knowing you can ask other women for hair ties, which has never personally happened to me except from a close friend, and holding other women’s hair back while they clasp their bra, which I’ve personally never done.

Just realised this is obviously the opposite - but it’s similar one for what it is to be a man too. Basically if you don’t do all that stuff of sharing hair ties and creating art on nails and eyelids etc, you’re not a woman but a man.

^The best part of being a woman is leaving computer problems and house problems to men. I'm absolutely relieved I don't have to design bridges, fix cars, fight fires, fight wars, fight crime, deal with scary animals or lift heavy things.
If there's a mousetrap to be set, I ask a man to do it. For me, being a woman is about avoiding responsibility whenever possible, though I do still have many responsibilities^

I hope you are trolling. This is full-on Women, Know Your Limits nonsense.

I wasn't trolling. I was just very happy that men do these things for me.

A number of people chided me. I didn't mean to say a woman can't fix cars, just that I can't. I will say, though, that if you look at the Ukraine, you see the women and children are escaping for a reason. Even if they are fully competent at combat or protecting themselves and their children, there must be a reason they left the country. It could be because they will be better protected from Russian men and serious crimes that take place during war such as sexual violence. In other words, war isn't a good spot for women. Their husbands WANT them to be out of the country to be safe. So somewhere in my paragraph, which was recently quoted, I must be correct. If there were a war in my country, I would leave, just so you know, and leave the men to duke it out.

As for firefighting, it's better for men to do this. A class D man is still stronger than a class A woman. Men's upper body strength is superior and better to pull people out of fires most effectively. Obviously, if no man is around, a woman can do the job, but it's not a feminine role. Similarly, woman can make effective cops perhaps 95% of the time, but they can be physically overpowered by a civilian male with less training.

Ukrainian women being allowed and encouraged to flee is to protect Ukraine's ability to exist in the future. Russian soldier rapists have been credibly quoted as telling their victims that one of their motivations for rape is to traumatise Ukrainian women so much that they will never be able to have sex again and so will not be able to have Ukrainian babies. No Ukrainian babies means no future Ukrainian citizens, means no future Ukraine because you cannot have a country without citizens.

The reasoning I give above is far from fringe feminism. Rape as a means of stopping future babies applies the computer science concept of a "Denial Of Service attack" against women's uteri and is why bodies like the UN recognise rape during wartime as a means of genocide.

Given the conduct of officers like Wayne Couzens, policing should not be trusted to men. Never mind the police being safe, what about us being safe from them raping us? We should make the police force all-female and arm them as appropriate to the situation they face. Guns are described as "the great equaliser" for a reason.

There are Ukrainian women who are staying and there are Ukrainian women who are in the military and fighting the Russians. I know of one Western firm which made military armour for the women so that they could be more effective in fighting the Russians.

Worth pointing out, though, that feminism hasn't been really a thing in either Ukraine or Russia. Communism really never affected the basic traditional sex roles or beliefs about women being responsible for most unpaid labour at home.

Feminism is dead in a war. At least, I haven't heard stories of how thousands of Polish feminist women are heading to the Ukraine to help fight the war. Some countries like Canada are sending soldiers to train the Ukrainians. Presumably, some are women. But most aren't.

I would just accept our limitations as women and be glad to rely on men.

Similarly, woman can make effective cops perhaps 95% of the time, but they can be physically overpowered by a civilian male with less training.

I read an interesting article about the possibility that women actually might be better at reducing the potential for violence in such interactions for various reasons, one being that they are more likely to talk it out and less likely to challenge the other men in terms of male rankings. But clearly that wouldn't always work, though no strategy would be without the possibility of failure.

Also, smaller men face similar concerns I would have thought as women do, i.e., they could be more easily overpowered by a civilian male.

I know of some countries where candidates for the police in fact had to be a certain height and had to pass physical tests (and this may still be true somewhere), but I have seen many rather slight male police officers recently so that's no longer universal. And the police in many places carries some type of weaponry which will affect the relative balance of strength.

It is a horrible fact of history that at the end of World War II Russian soldiers advancing across Germany to Berlin committed millions of rapes of women of all ages and conditions, many of whom, in light of prevailing psychology/morality committed suicide. The Russians have inflicted warfare like World War II on Ukraine, and troops are told (and we know many believe) Ukraine is Nazi. But the main reason for women leaving the country, I believe, has been to take children with them to safety and to look after them, and in some cases (where they consent to leave) elderly relatives. Many have gone to relatives in nearby countries like Poland, which has been heroic in accepting and trying to nurture them. Female members of the Ukrainian armed forces have, of course, stayed and fought wherever that is possible.

Here's one article about women in the Ukrainian military:
https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-attitudes-to-women-in-the-military-are-changing-as-thousands-serve-on-front-lines-198195

Elsewhere I read that there are 60 000 women in the Ukrainian military, 5000 serving on the front lines.

Really interesting and generally immensely positive.

That’s incredibly reductive and simplistic. There are many pressures on young men these days, just look at Love Island and the perfect physique

I had some level of gender dysphoria as a child and teen (never acted upon). I don't think I could tell you what it was caused by when I was a young child. My best guess is that most of my friends were boys and I wanted to be the same as them?

However, as a teen, I hated, with a passion, my developing body. I hated periods and the accompanying pain and nuisance. I hated my breasts, which seemed to be invented for no other reason than to annoy me by bouncing around when I was running! My feeling was that boys didn't have to bother with any of this stuff so they had a better deal. And my body did feel foreign to me.

What, of course, never crossed my mind was that going through male puberty, even if I'd been able to magically swap to a completely male body, with no need for surgery, medications, etc, would probably have felt just as disorienting. What I wanted to do was opt out of female puberty, not opt into male puberty.

I've not had gender dysphoria since my mid to late teens. Eventually growing up (I'm not going to say going through puberty as there was a lot more to it than that) cured it. I'm extremely glad that no adult around was mad enough to try and transition me, because apart from anything else I now have two adorable children and a wonderful husband. There's no way I'd have understood in my teens just what I was giving up to transition.

I say all this knowing that someone who had persistent dysphoria might say something very different. But that's my experience of it.

As an ex-teacher the trans students on both sides were almost exclusively autistic with their black and white thinking meaning they didn't fit the 'box' they were born into therefore should be in the other one. Were homosexual and not ready for that ie they socially changed gender and then happily dated someone of the same sex interestingly their peers accepted the trans students far more than the openly homosexual students or had suffered SA or some other significant trauma and being the opposite sex was safer.

DD says she's non binary. She fits the mold perfectly, she's autistic, she doesn't feel like she fits the feminine or masculine box. She is a tall and athletic rugby player and doesn't fit the small and dainty female trope. Wears her hair very short but that's a sensory thing as she doesn't like her hair touching her neck. She was first sexually harassed at age 10 and came home asking for baggie clothes, when she's dressed in a more masculine way people don't comment on her body. Body changes are painful, menstruation is painful and messy. Who wouldn't want to opt out of that?

For me the only time I've actively and positively felt like a 'woman' was when I was pregnant and breastfeeding, that feeling of performing something that only women can do, linked through time and location and no longer being the end piece but now a link in the chain. Sitting up at 2am breastfeeding knowing that women in Africa, America and Asia were doing the same was powerful.

Otherwise feminine things are largely negative, sexual harassment, uncomfortable clothes, shoes and make up, difficulty with hormones, feel of being unsafe out at night and having to keep personal safety at the forefront etc etc it's not surprising the current generation want to escape it.

I think this.

Thank you so much for that. It confirms what I have now long believed - that transitioning is done without any thought for the massive importance that having kids can acquire in a person's life as they mature, gain experience, find a loved one and so on (as well as the control of a conception and birth being a fundamental aspect of being a woman, and of identity with others). Because of the hateful anti-gay attacks on lesbians by trans activists (see the recent thread on this board about the "protest" in London) and the testimony of many unhappy women who did transition, there has been more emphasis on this issue. But for straight women the loss could be immeasurable and of course permanent. (As a matter of interest, when you experienced gender dysphoria did you [remain] essentially heterosexual -- if so, and if you had transitioned, you would have become gay - and I am sure a life as a female gay man would make female puberty look like a peaceful haven!)

Singleandproud · Today 07:30
As an ex-teacher the trans students on both sides were almost exclusively autistic with their black and white thinking meaning they didn't fit the 'box' they were born into therefore should be in the other one. Were homosexual and not ready for that ie they socially changed gender and then happily dated someone of the same sex interestingly their peers accepted the trans students far more than the openly homosexual students or had suffered SA or some other significant trauma and being the opposite sex was safer.

Thank you. This is so important. The very powerful new book about the Tavistock gender clinic for kids and adolescents reveals that fully 30% of the referrals were autistic (and other serious disorders, especially eating) -- but all the highly qualified psychologists and medics made nothing of this and always insisted that gender was the cure-all; to the extent of almost killing one poor kid with acute ADHD, who was saved by his mother putting her foot down, pulling him out of the Tavistock clinic and getting him to a private counsellor for three years (he is now living pretty successfully as a gay man).

Girls at school experience the toxic side of femininity. They identify as trans and hang out with the lgbt crowd. At no point do they start hanging out with the lads, experience the male pecking order, etc. Their experience of being male is based on manga and YouTube, not getting slammed into the fence playing football and being called a pussy.

This!

At its simplest I don’t believe it’s to do with wanting something male (as the female surely can’t know what it is to be male so how can they want it.
I believes it’s more around unsatisfied emotional/mental needs/issues, where the individual genuinely believes that a resolution will be found in adopting certain opposite sex “attributes”. It’s a conflation of pre-existing issues and perceptions around manhood or maleness (or womanhood for opposite direction).
Plus OP please do not use the word cis gender and then proclaim to have gender critical views. Cis gender is offensive and carries a deep implication that some element of sex is perception when it is not.
More appropriate term would be biological male or biological female.

All the things you mention (and similar ones mentioned by others) do play a vital role in young women claiming to be trans. It is clear that also, for some, relentless anti-gay bullying and anti-gay parents blocked their intuitive route out of unwanted femininity, while serious psychological issues like autism and eating disorders play a major part. But it still seems incredible to me that nobody has successfully asked one trans man to say what it is about the male body, or aspects of it, that they believe it is essential to have in order to match their (imagined) gender identity.

"Cis gender" is a horrible idea and phrase and I loathe it. What I wrote was " I do not have any supposed cis-gender identity" with the emphasis on supposed. That is to say, there is no such thing, and people should not misinterpret what follows to suggest there is. Nevertheless, one person did. I listed aspects of male biology and the way they create physical sensations in men (which is not the same as how men understand or perceive or think about them), but I would like to hear how they figure in the claims trans people make about their gender identity - because they have surgery to create a false penis, scrotum and testicles. Why?

I asked my 13 year DD what the transboys in her year believe it is to "be a boy". She wasn't sure, went off and had a shower and just came and told me "they want to be treated like boys. It's not about being a boy, it's about being treated like one."

Then told me to never say that to anyone because we'll get cancelled for thinking it.

What does being treated like a boy mean?

Does she mean not being treated like shit?

Because surely the focus should be on making it less shit to be a girl/woman, not on allowing girls/women the delusion that they have opted out of all that.

Does she mean not being treated like shit?

She's gone out now, but I expect that's exactly what she means.

Girls at her school get ripped to shreds for not conforming to female beauty and behavioural stereotypes. Mostly by other girls competing for power and attention from the boys (DD calls them the "pick me" girls).

She's GC but not openly. Some of her wider friendship group are very "be kind" and will enthusiastically ostracise, smear and publicly shame people for not being kind. The irony.