What do transgender women/girls think it is to be a man?

[ValuePartnership]

I have tried and tried in every place to find out what exactly it is (specifically) that makes women, and especially girls, feel they are "really" men? Does anyone have any idea? I am a man and would love to know what, apart from some very general conviction (asserted but never made specific); wanting to wear male clothing; wanting male "body shape"; represents becoming a "man" to trans women (or girls). Such ideas are supposed to match the reality of having a male identity. I do not have any supposed cis-gender identity, but I know what things have been central to living as a boy and then a man - and it's nothing like anything I have read about trans men. I never thought being a man depended on others seeing me as man; I never thought about my body shape; most of the clothes I wear (and have always worn) are very ordinary and could just as easily have been worn by a woman. The big big deal for me all my life (I am in my 60s) has been the way I experience sexual excitement and arousal: my body will register it (and sometimes against my wishes) through penile erection; the next has been the experience of orgasm deep in my body (prostate gland); then how vulnerable to attack (friendly or violenbt) by other males, or my own clumsiness, my testicles made and make me. Only then came comparisons - I was aware of, generally to a high degree, being taller and stronger than females. Finally, I learned that I could become a father (with a growing realistion I was expected to do so); that I had a distribution of body hair (more than some other men and less than others) that affected my appearance. It seems to me that even if you think you are a man, you have no idea what being a man is like unless you are one. Hence nobody ever says. Anyone able to help with ideas?

Dylan Mulvaney is everything that's wraith the regressive stereotype aspect of trans ideology.

A grown man mincing around referring to himself as a 'giiiiirl', its so cringe.

The only silver lining is there are some good piss take videos of him out there to giggle at.

Wraith? Wrong

If I were a man I’d be very annoyed by women claiming they “feel like a man”.
How could they possibly know? It’s insulting to men. And if I were a gay man I’d be even more annoyed.
It’s the mirror image of my annoyance with men claiming they feel “like women”.

If the transmen that pop up on Instagram are anything to go by, being a man seems to consist of wearing chinos and plaid shirts to pose in front of the camera with your chin thrust out (preferably sporting a minimal amount of artfully trimmed facial hair) or admiring your bare chest, including mastectomy scars. The lack of breasts seems a key requirement - as Exculansic has noted, the shirt-less trip to the beach or pool is an important trans rite.

@Meceme but you can’t tell people they need to know what their motivation is? 😁 they may not even know why they like to wear dresses and long hair?

it is very hard/impossible to break free from society’s expectations

I don't think they need to know why. If they want to do it, who cares why?

You seem to think that you can generalise across all trans men. I imagine they all have different ideas of what it means to be a man, a group of cis men would give you different answers too. Just because your gender identity is all based in your testicles it doesn't mean everyone else's is. Would you lose your gender identity if you had to have your balls removed?

What if the OP doesn't have a 'gender identity '

It's not mandatory, last time I checked

I am a woman and I've read some comments where people say they feel expected to do certain things as a woman and that's the problem.

This question is very complex for me and I struggle to get my head around come aspects of it but I will say as a woman I have never felt expected to do anything.

I love wearing make up and high heels, I love a freshly shaved leg, I like feeling "feminine" and that's what feminine feels like to me. That said I am also comfortable wearing no make up, baggy joggers and jumper with unshaven armpits.

I think we should all just come across how we want on that day depending how we feel at the time. I'm comfortable with my sexuality but understand why some are not, if they feel suppressed or forced into being a certain way.

Many of the transmen I see on social media go all in on a very traditional macho look - especially the abs. Nothing wrong with fitness and good muscle tone, of course, it just seems rather superficial to me as I don't see much evidence of thinking beyond that.

You've talked about transmen and cis men but the OP is talking about men which is the vast majority of males.

Well, I don’t know if you realise it, but this is the gender critical argument.

Gender identity is how well people’s personalties measure up against sexist stereotypes.

What unites all men is a male biology. Other than that, their personality and personal styles can vary greatly.

I think for TM they have to go all out on the hyper masculine look. I mean, wearing an old t shirt and joggers probably won't cut it as women have been doing that for decades.

I have to say, that despite being pretty far along the gender critical spectrum, and very vocal about female only spaces etc, I do actually get what the biologically female non binary colleagues I have are on about. I empathise deeply with their desire to reject the shackles of womanhood and assert an identity that is not outwardly female. The ones I have chatted to actually have ironically similar views to me on some things but just a very different interpretation/reaction. I am quite sure that if I were 20 years younger that I would surely be considering this option. Not in terms of transitioning, but pronouns for sure.

what I do not get is that female non binary people I know seem to be fully TWAW - the ideology overall is inconsistent, and I don’t think trans is a single homogenous group with aligned needs.

Backinthebox your life sounds fantastic!
OP I agree with you.
Many do.

I agree.

What I'm trying to say, possibly not very articulately, is:

Be who you are, live your life the way you want, love who you want.

Don't feel that you have to fit society's boxes if they're not a natural fit for you that doesn't make you wrong.

If they are, crack on and enjoy.

Be happy in your choices whatever they are because you are enough as you are.

Still not sure I've explained well enough but hey ho, gotta go to work now.

I don't know.

To me it's as stupid as saying they identify as a hamster. It's nonsensical.

Whether we are happy with our body, our sex, our lives, etc or not we can have no idea of what it actually feels like to be the opposite sex. We can't even have any idea, although are in a better place to understand and emphasise, what another of the same sex feels like. Everyone has a unique perspective on life as everything that happens to the individual shapes how we see ourselves and the world.

The sexes as a group have biological processes in common, a lot of men will have a understanding of the issues with prostate at 3am in the morning, but even the experiences of each will be different, as will how they deal with it and feel about It.

So some women might decide to opt out of woman hood. They may dress in a stereotypical male way, they might take testosterone and have their breasts removed and a penis made out of the skin off their arm.

They may claim to be a man. They may even convince themselves they are a man and feel like a man.

But they would be lying. To you and to themselves.

I think it's impossible to "know" what it is to be a man or a woman - it really treats it like a very simple thing, which it is not. It is coloured by hormones, societal expectations, social conditioning etc etc.

I have met one transman. So this is not a carefully researched scientific opinion.

He looked like a masculine woman and his voice was somewhere between female ranges and masculine tones. The men in the group were uncomfortable with him and he gravitated towards the women. I did not feel as if I was talking to a man and all in all, he seemed like a fish out of water, rather than someone who was living their authentic self. So I did wonder really about whether this really does help people or not?

@Peekingovertheparapet

what I do not get is that female non binary people I know seem to be fully TWAW - the ideology overall is inconsistent, and I don’t think trans is a single homogenous group with aligned needs.

It is actually totally consistent. A key element of genderism is that words don't have the meanings you think they have, and can indeed change meaning several times in the course of a discussion. So woman now means man with feelings of entitlement, and non-binary means completely committed to binary 'genders' based on stereotypes. George Orwell would be proud. or possibly horrified.

Overall I get the impression that these women are adopting a gender identity as transmen so that they can set mousetraps, is that right?

Now I'm jealous. Is piloting a plane as amazing as I imagine it to be?

That Guardian article is so sad. Womanhood and the reality of our sexed bodies and living in a society that objectifys them, works against thrm, punishes them is awful. We women live with this reality every day of our lives and it is exhausting. I see why some women and girls want out.

The truimphant individualistic tone of the article upsets me. Presenting this as some sort of clever hack to escape the effects of the patriarchy is devestatingly sad, the patriarchy had really done a number on Jackson. Jackson has literally joined the oppressor class in a bid to escape their oppression. Women as a sex class need to fight to make things better for women - regardless of our preferences on dress, behaviour and identity. The reality is we can never outrun our biology and indivudals trying to escape the oppression women experience on account of our biology will never make things better for themselves or women more generally.

As a cleverer woman than me said " your silence will not protect you"

I read that article and thought it was very uninsightful. The comment which suggested that transphobes think your genitalia define your gender was particularly silly. It's actually the exact opposite. The writer is falling into that trap and so called transphobes are standing up against that idea. She has tied identity to her body and then felt a need to change her body to be herself. But if identity is not tied to your body then there's no need to see it as restrictive to one's identity. TRAs are doing what she's accusing transphobes of.

OP in answer to your question, TRAs have always refused to clearly answer this. Sometimes you get some circular waft of an answer which does not make sense to most people. I am a woman and very much like you. My body of course does change my experiences. You can't get periods for example if you're not an actual woman so not man can ever know what that's like. But I have no gender identity.

I've read quite a few posts, all from people who are NOT trans giving their opinions. I really think it would be helpful to hear from some trans people. I'm not trans and quite frankly I have no idea what it's like.

Anyway I am off to do some manning as someone has to work out the cause of, and fix, the damp that appears to be entering my flat around the back door. Mr Monkey could do it but he is also manning by going out and earning money today

Apparently not having a penis does not exempt me from the difficult stuff, regardless of what @ilikeyarn promised.

@SallyWD indeed it would. But surely it would only be one person's expereince. I am sure my feeling of what it feels like to be a woman is mine and mine alone and not something anyone else can share, them surely it is the same for trans people?