Help me reply to my "BeKind" brother in NZ, please!

[Fubbs]

I'm in a WhatsApp group with my Dad (in Ireland, as I am) and brother (in NZ for years). I've been trying to explain what's been happening to women's rights but it's ended up that they have expressed compassion for Barbie Kardashian so I've plainly failed (although my Dad did post that Monty Python "because I say I am" speech so I think he's not totally on board).

(Bit of a lead up to it, before that particular part of the conversation, I got the "KJK is a Nazi, not welcome here" line from my brother. I pointed out she'd been attacked and Nazis were in Australia and he didn't mention that and denied the Nazis were there and said there were more protesters than attendees at the Auckland Let Women Speak meeting (I think that proves KJK isn't popular for him). He didn't bother reading thecountess.ie for a very good summary of the issues. He's married with a wife, two boys and a girl. I'm married, two boys).

I asked why it was okay to house a violent man (to be fair, my brother hasn't tried to correct my sex-based pronoun use) with women and he gave me "prison authorities are doing their best for everyone), I countered that women have rights too and that includes single sex spaces. Final message so far (there's quite a time delay) and woke up (I'd my phone on silent, I've been waking at night in turmoil that he doesn't see it and is happy to basically throw me to the wolves):

"Yes, your position has been made clear.

need legal (legislative, judicial, enforcement) society/facilities/legal institutions to figure the mess out for all.

An example I shared earlier about professional level sports bodies [athletics] making a deision, regarding competing, shows it is possible but even that is not the end of it but a single step in a conversation, a process, an evolution.

It will not be straightworward nor easy nor quick but it will requre a lot of hard work from everybody on a good faith basis, because that is where most of us are and I hope not in a bad actor basis because that is the horrific but rare example, abhorrent to all"

@ScrollingLeaves

It's apparent that many countries are now enacting new laws on the basis of gender identity.

The person who has published a complete history on this Christine Burns.

I have always found it profoundly unprogressive that this legislative movement is driven by the age and sex cohort that were instrumental in ensuring genuine equal treatment laws like equal pay were not taken seriously nor implemented via transparent practices.

And yet their every word on the rights of women to have sex exemptions in equality laws is taken as the guiding principles.

It's utter old fashioned sexism from a generation steeped in it.

So many people in NZ are like this.

Do remember the "media" in nz is totally captured & absolutely insufferable. I'm having same issue with some friends and family there. The message they are fed day in & out is "beautiful fragile rainbow community" "be kind" "TWAW". Any dissent is by far right Nazi trump supporter haters. Most politicians are in on it too.

My point is not only are you dealing with this issue, but to properly hear and contemplate your points, your brother would have to accept that the whole MSM and govt in NZ are lying to and gaslighting the nation. That is massive. That's a fundamentally life changing & shocking realisation in itself. All of NZ is grappling with this at the moment. Think of UK media a few years ago snd then remove any investigative journos or dissent. MSM in nz is unimaginably abominable. For most it's their main source of "news". Nz models itself on Canada politically & has been blindly guided by them for years now.

It is changing very very slowly. Posie was a massive & very important shock to nz.

Plant seeds. You won't change his mind now. But plant seeds. Some great advise on this thread.

As we all know once you start to see things on this topic it's impossible to unsee it. But it's going to be very painful for nz as a nation. Cause they have all been massively lied to and manipulated by trusted & important institutions. We have in the UK to, but it is different in nz. It's much more insular and the "NZ is best & kind" indoctrination is very very powerful.

Also NZ remains brutally misogynistic but has had high number of female politicians, PMs and governor generals etc. They think this means NZ is really great for women and superior to rest of world for women's & minority rights. Couldn't be further from the truth sadly. The cognitive dissonance is powerful nationwide.

This is a good post. I remember someone in here claiming they had ‘no hatred’ in NZ. It seems people were worked into to a frenzy to react with violence, this cartoon sums it up for me

I fear U.K. going the same way if next GE allows it.

The fact that PP is an outsider (a Brit, no less) means ‘we’ (NZ society) get to dismiss her wholesale.

We need our own to start speaking up.

We will.

Maybe they are being kind and you are wrong.

Yeah, nah.

Yeah no hatred in nz, no sexism, its clean & green, it's all good.

Except it's all a massive lie.

I have to apologise to @DodoPatrol , your post clearly formed my reply and I ne er thanked you. Ita shame I forgot to use doofus though😁

Ugh, typo central on this bloody tablet

Thank you so much for this @TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand , so much resonates with my journey

And a general thank you to all the posters once again, your wisdom has been a real lifeline and got me through the last few days. I was going to stick the bunch of flowers emoji on the end but couldn't find it! 🍾cheers to you all instead 😊

I find that asking questions is the way to go then your words cannot be turned against you.
Eg what is a terf?
He replies.
Yes, but what does that really mean?
Why are more transwomen in prison for sexual offences as a percentage of trans population than male sex offenders as a percentage of men.
More than 4 x as many?
Why are you so keen to use women's toilets?
Why do transwomen dress so badly?
If transwomen are women why do they have male pattern baldness?
Why do transmen have babies if they hate having a woman's body?
Why do surgeons basically experiment on humans and who is going to care for these poor mutilated people when they're 80 and their pretend vagina needs dilating?

Never give him a view point.
Just be like an annoying dc saying why, why all the time.

Well done for getting back to him OP.

If anyone is surprised by my unorthodox methods for putting patronising, mansplaining, misogynist male family members in their place when they amuse themselves with a little bit of light pontification about what rights and boundaries women are entitled to, I would like to reassure you that it does work. Keep it in your arsenal, so you can deploy the nuclear option at the right moment.

In my personal experience, I have found that when I see their eyes so wide that the whites of their eyes show above their irises, their jaws are dropped -stupefied, and defensive bodies flung back in their seats by the force of my tirade, is the moment I know they are never going to try it on again. Thereafter, they are the one’s treading on eggshells, anxious that they won’t be made to look foolish in front of their spouses.

Now I feel more at ease when it comes to family events- I don’t have those knots in my stomach or days of rumination at allowing myself (or women as a group) be disrespected.

Men are not superior to women.
Men are not entitled to tell women what boundaries we are ‘allowed’ to have.

The more men that understand this, the better.

You all have permission to stand up for yourselves and go nuclear if/when needed.

I wonder if the reason blokes don't wish to share with tw is actually homophobic, I think that's the right word in this context. They're worried, although they'd never say, that they might find them sexually attractive. Which would raise questions about their masculinity that they don't want to think about. Easier to pack them off to the ladies room.

I think misogyny and the fear of castration is a huge part.

They think:

“Poor fucker - imagine being willing to demean, demote and degrade yourself and be a lowly, pointless women - no bloke would do that unless he was sincere.”

And

”Don’t even make me think about blokes chopping their cocks off, - you’d better piss of out of my space, it might be catching.”

And

”Women - you are the support humans, do your one job and deal with this exile!”

Straight blokes can be really fooled by transvestite men can’t they? One of my family members had a bloke do it to him and he said, when he heard the male voice come out of the mouth he had been convinced belonged to a glamorous woman, that his emotion was utter disappointment. His expectations of the male fantasy encounter made real, were dashed.

Men can be so dumb when their dicks are engaged.

Obviously that's a far more legitimate reason not to want to share than women not wanting to be assaulted.

Women can't hold their own opinion. They have to be controlled by higher powers.

Rule 2

1. Women saying no to men is a hate crime

Rule 9

1. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

Look at the full rules of misogyny. You will never be able to reason against the males in your family who are full on sexist. Its just a new way of manifesting. Their male opinions will ALWAYS be more important and more intelligent/aware etc than yours. They have more authority and understand the issues (that effect women much more) better.

1. Women are responsible for what men do.
2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4. Women’s opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified.
5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6. Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breastfeeding babies deserve punishment.
7. Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad. 11. Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men. 12. Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry. 13. Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves. 14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent. 15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others. 16. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves.

Once you see and understand their sexism, its not worth engaging with them, because its not a level playing field.

I would be replying by pointing out their underlying sexism and the fact that they don't respect you as their equal and are actively accusing you of being too dim / weak / easily lead to hold your own opinions based on your own life experience of discrimation as a woman and say you refuse to engage with sexist woke beards on the matter.

@RedToothBrush that's a horrible lists, particularly as it's true about my brother. My Dad is old school women and children first and probably more open minded about this than bro. Won't put it to the test though, just in case I'm the last one standing in my family!

Its depressing isn't it, to realise that those closest to you don't see you as having equal value to the on the basis of your sex.

I think a lot of trans activism's popularity amongst woke bros is because it allows men to present as progressive and inclusive yet maintain incredibly sexist views that in other circumstances would be out dated and frowned upon in todays society.

Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

To be really progressive you need to actually listen to women's concerns and deal with them in a positive fashion rather than dismissing them offhandedly or labelling them as coming from outside influence.

Why are women concerned about safeguarding? What in their life experience is driving that? Where is the evidence that these emotional responses are based on unfounded fears rather than actual problems? Why do women feel that their dignity is being affected and why does it come second to that of men? Why can't women define themselves, why must women be defined by men? Why is there a difference between arguments over the meaning of woman but we don't see that mirrored by debates over the word man? Does gender neutral language improve things for women or does it merely revert to male being regarded as the default setting without the explicit mention of women? How does transactivism about women's spaces work with minority women and religion - does it mean that marginalised women become more marginalised because of sexism / tradition in other communities? How does transactivism stop lesbophobia and the coercion of lesbians in having sex with men? Where does this leave same sex attracted females who don't want sex with penises? Is it homophobic to expect these women to except transwomen into their bed? Why was women's sport initially set up? If it was created because women couldn't compete with men, why is it now ok for males to compete with them? What changed? Why were women with elevated levels of testosterone through drug use banned from competitive sport? How do you take stock with biological differences between lung capacity, bone structure, periods, child bearing affecting women in sport? How do you tell the difference between males who are using self ID as a method to access women and males who are female and pose no harm? How does a sexually abused woman deal with sharing dormatories with males? Why is there an overrepresentation of transwomen who are in prison serving sexually motived crimes? Why is there an overrepresentation of self reported disability in the trans community? Why is there an overrepresention of autism in the trans community? Does transactivism create more or less barriers to accessing mental health support? Why is safeguarding in schools disregarded due to transactivism? Why are teenage girls who typically feel discomfort with their bodies during puberty being automatically assumed to be trans rather than exploring multiple possible explanations? Especially in the context of the Cass review which highlighted that children appeared to often be in situations where undue pressure was being placed on them by other family members, be homosexual and victims of homophobia, have experiences sexual abuse or trauma? In what way is the Cass review bigoted and unprofessional if you dismiss its finding about wholesale safeguarding failures? If mixed sex facilities pose a greater risk to women, why should women accept this because it suits transwomen? Why is male violence against transwomen not being dealt with by woke dudes in their own toilets? Why is it that women have to deal with the threat instead? Do they go into mixed changing rooms and fear cameras being shoved under the cubical in the same way women do? Have they compared the number of incidents reported between single sex facilities and mixed sex/single gender facilities?

One of the ways to open eyes, is not to provide the answers but force questions upon activists in order to force them to think and explore why their beliefs don't hold up to questioning.

Men who dominate conversation with their views and TELL women what they should think, can't cope with the rational questioning because they are the ones who have been indoctrined. They simply haven't thought about multiple situations. Or dismiss it as unimportant because its unimportant to THEM and THEIR life with little or no thought as to how these impacts are not universal and even - they affect certain groups far more than others.

Their default position and experience of life is to have never faced many of these situations so they have no reference point from which to ask questions. They don't have concerns about the ideology because these are concerns that they don't face on a daily basis.

Men looking at the world from a default male position rather than putting themselves into the shoes of women and what the world looks like to them. Thats sexism right there in a nutshell. To tell you, you have been indoctrined is the biggest insult of them all in this context - because it is a complete dismissal of your life experience and your value as a human because women's lived experiences and concerns don't matter and don't count.

NOTHING is more sexist than that.

@Fubbs Face it. You are just not as rational as he is. Sigh. But he perseveres because he is your brother and he loves you and knows you cant help it. Thats how much of a good person he is

That was sarcasm by the way!

but it's ended up that they have expressed compassion for Barbie Kardashian

you can formulate as many arguments as you like but given what you wrote, will they listen?
The best answer you could probably give is something along the lines of "well, you clearly don't think that my or any other woman's safety is more important than men wanting to wear dresses so you two talk among yourselves."

then leave the chat and don't engage on anything except urgent things. Why upset yourself knowing that your two closest male relatives feel like this?

All you can do OP is pray and hope that his daughter :

doesn’t show prowess in a sport where the records are achieved by transwomen and the medals podium doesn’t include women.

doesn’t need to have access to a rape crisis centre or domestic abuse refuge and find herself sharing the space and being counselled by transwomen.

stays on the straight and narrow and avoids incarceration in a prison system where transwomen prisoners are also housed

stays healthy so she can avoid sharing a hospital room with a bearded tattooed transwoman who farts all night and pisses in the sink.

is happy to share changing rooms and showers in sports facilities with intact men who like to wear dresses and silky knickers.