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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help me reply to my "BeKind" brother in NZ, please!

177 replies

Fubbs · 28/03/2023 09:34

I'm in a WhatsApp group with my Dad (in Ireland, as I am) and brother (in NZ for years). I've been trying to explain what's been happening to women's rights but it's ended up that they have expressed compassion for Barbie Kardashian so I've plainly failed (although my Dad did post that Monty Python "because I say I am" speech so I think he's not totally on board).

(Bit of a lead up to it, before that particular part of the conversation, I got the "KJK is a Nazi, not welcome here" line from my brother. I pointed out she'd been attacked and Nazis were in Australia and he didn't mention that and denied the Nazis were there and said there were more protesters than attendees at the Auckland Let Women Speak meeting (I think that proves KJK isn't popular for him). He didn't bother reading thecountess.ie for a very good summary of the issues. He's married with a wife, two boys and a girl. I'm married, two boys).

I asked why it was okay to house a violent man (to be fair, my brother hasn't tried to correct my sex-based pronoun use) with women and he gave me "prison authorities are doing their best for everyone), I countered that women have rights too and that includes single sex spaces. Final message so far (there's quite a time delay) and woke up (I'd my phone on silent, I've been waking at night in turmoil that he doesn't see it and is happy to basically throw me to the wolves):

"Yes, your position has been made clear.

need legal (legislative, judicial, enforcement) society/facilities/legal institutions to figure the mess out for all.

An example I shared earlier about professional level sports bodies [athletics] making a deision, regarding competing, shows it is possible but even that is not the end of it but a single step in a conversation, a process, an evolution.

It will not be straightworward nor easy nor quick but it will requre a lot of hard work from everybody on a good faith basis, because that is where most of us are and I hope not in a bad actor basis because that is the horrific but rare example, abhorrent to all"

OP posts:
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Kokeshi123 · 29/03/2023 07:28

You may just have to say bluntly, "we are not going to agree on this, so let's agree to disagree, not talk about it again, and stick to other subjects." And leave it at that.

He may change his mind as the general pushback gains momentum.

Fubbs · 29/03/2023 07:46

He responded to my definition of TERF with "yea, nah" as the Kiwis say. So tempted to point out the Kiwis use more than words and post the video of the 70 year old woman being punched in the face but he'll intellectually justify that, no doubt.

Still need to reply to his mansplaining but the last time I called him out on that he thought it was hilarious. God, he really is awful...

OP posts:
CreationNat1on · 29/03/2023 08:31

I wonder how he would genuinely respond if his daughter identified as trans and wanted blockers / surgery.

I have an obnoxious older sister, who waxed lyrical about her progressive, liberal political leanings, despite working for a traditional, right wing political party...... Roll on mothering a teenager through a period of sexuality confusion/consideration and corresponding accusations of the non acceptance of the non hetero normative potential lifestyle choice..... And all of a sudden the pious, progressive (yet still patriarchal) viewpoints have been silenced and replaced with public facing neutrality, and private familial support via properly trained professionals.

Your brother is living in a deluded, virtue signalling, bubble, he ll change when reality eventually pierces through.

Queenofscones · 29/03/2023 08:31

You're not going to change his mind. I haven't changed my sister's mind or the minds of about half my former friends over several years. They've taken a position without thinking about it in order to be kind and they'll argue that black's white and day's night till the cows come home. They can't and won't back down in because they know that a) they're wrong and b) they don't mind being wrong because they get enough reward from knowing that they're nice people putting women back in their place to make it not matter.

So stop trying. He'll be getting a buzz out of being able to swat you away with denial. Remember, he's now into misogynist mode and being fed by that. Cut him off. Go quiet on him. Give up on him for now. If he says 'What's up, where have you been?' say that you find his views so offensive that you want nothing to do with him and leave it there. I have with my sister and I think it shocked her. Otherwise you're like a woman in an abusive relationship who keeps going back for a bit more abuse. When people abuse you, when they show you who they really are, listen to them. Step away. Go and find yourself better people.

MsRosley · 29/03/2023 08:41

Dear brother, you're a dimwitted misogynist c*nt, love OP x

RosaBonheur · 29/03/2023 08:45

Fubbs · 29/03/2023 07:46

He responded to my definition of TERF with "yea, nah" as the Kiwis say. So tempted to point out the Kiwis use more than words and post the video of the 70 year old woman being punched in the face but he'll intellectually justify that, no doubt.

Still need to reply to his mansplaining but the last time I called him out on that he thought it was hilarious. God, he really is awful...

I would send him a link to the video of the 70 year old woman being punched in the face.

And this.

www.terfisaslur.com

TERF is a slur

Documenting the abuse, harassment and misogyny of transgender identity politics

http://www.terfisaslur.com

MsRosley · 29/03/2023 08:45

On the other hand, you could try the killer question. Ask him hand on heart if something were to happen to his wife, would he include transwomen in his dating pool? Point out that the vast majority keep their tackle. Dare him to answer honestly.

I always feel this one cuts to the chase. Because if these leftwing bros are allowed to discriminate along the lines of biology when it suits them, then women are allowed to as well.

If he claims he would date a fully intact transwoman, call him a liar. Because he is one.

Fubbs · 29/03/2023 09:46

RosaBonheur · 29/03/2023 08:45

I would send him a link to the video of the 70 year old woman being punched in the face.

And this.

www.terfisaslur.com

That site is frightening. I replied to bro, kept it very light and minimal to spare my Dad and not let bro think he got me.

"Or, maybe I've had 50 years of being a woman to form my views on being a woman, who knows 🤔?! Oh, the inside info I have access too 🤣"

I finally slept last night, I now appreciate how important inner peace is! Thanks to each and every poster, you've saved my sanity.

I won't be entertaining any further discussion from bro on these issues. His male privilege shields him from any understanding but he thinks I'm the problem. It'd would be a bad time to discover he's planning a trip to Ireland, won't ask my folks in case it gives him ideas 😁.

Just to repeat, thank you to every poster for understanding, supporting and helping me and for the laughs, tears (from having necessary truths pointed out to me) and inner peace you have given me.

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 29/03/2023 09:49

Do you ever meet up?

It’s so hard to just have WhatsApp as point of contact

He does sound absolutely steeped in male privilege

TheABC · 29/03/2023 09:51

I am glad you found some peace.
For me, the Staniland Question was a good one, as was the "would you date a transwoman?"

Until it affects him, he won't care. It's that simple and that selfish.

beastlyslumber · 29/03/2023 09:55

I think that's a perfect response, OP. Well done! And yes, just let it go now. If he comes back with anything I suggest just saying "🤣🤣🤣" or thumbs up emoji and changing the subject.

He will either change his mind or he won't and there's no point wasting your energy and emotion on him.

Noicant · 29/03/2023 10:02

MsRosley · 29/03/2023 08:45

On the other hand, you could try the killer question. Ask him hand on heart if something were to happen to his wife, would he include transwomen in his dating pool? Point out that the vast majority keep their tackle. Dare him to answer honestly.

I always feel this one cuts to the chase. Because if these leftwing bros are allowed to discriminate along the lines of biology when it suits them, then women are allowed to as well.

If he claims he would date a fully intact transwoman, call him a liar. Because he is one.

This, reminds me of the “transwomen are women except for dating purposes” bloke.

whatthebejesus · 29/03/2023 10:09

What are you hoping to achieve? Fwiw op I'm with you fully however your brother has his opinion and is entitled to it. Continuously hammering your point and trying to change his mind is no different to the bilge the TRA do.

I just wouldn't discuss it. If he brings it up then say your piece and leave it at that.

RosaBonheur · 29/03/2023 10:12

TheABC · 29/03/2023 09:51

I am glad you found some peace.
For me, the Staniland Question was a good one, as was the "would you date a transwoman?"

Until it affects him, he won't care. It's that simple and that selfish.

Any man who wouldn't be willing to have sex with a trans woman should respect our right not to share changing rooms or rape crisis groups with one.

JacquelinePot · 29/03/2023 10:15

DodoPatrol · 29/03/2023 07:19

At a guess:

He can imagine being a transwoman and feels uneasily sorry for them.

He has no clue what it’s like to be a woman and assumes it must be easy, given even his sister manages it.

Isn't he pompous about it, though? It would make me want to revert to childhood and put yogurt in his hood.

I think this is the heart of it. He empathises with these men because they are men, they are like him so he can put himself in their place.

He likely thinks that these men all have they genitals removed. Being a man himself, he can't think of anything worse than having his gentials. This triggers oceans of empathy for the poor tragic souls who hate their bodies so much that they would remove their genitals.

If he really thought they were women, he wouldn't be able to muster such empathy, as evidenced by his lack of empathy for his own sister.

Fubbs · 29/03/2023 12:10

MarshaBradyo · 29/03/2023 09:49

Do you ever meet up?

It’s so hard to just have WhatsApp as point of contact

He does sound absolutely steeped in male privilege

No, I'm in Ireland and he's (thankfully) far away in NZ!

OP posts:
Fubbs · 29/03/2023 12:11

Which makes it very hard to put yogurt in his hood but the thought of it alone cheered me up!

OP posts:
Fubbs · 29/03/2023 12:15

whatthebejesus · 29/03/2023 10:09

What are you hoping to achieve? Fwiw op I'm with you fully however your brother has his opinion and is entitled to it. Continuously hammering your point and trying to change his mind is no different to the bilge the TRA do.

I just wouldn't discuss it. If he brings it up then say your piece and leave it at that.

I'm back on the PC so it's easier to quote now. I suppose I was hoping to open his mind using BK as an example of how much danger self ID puts women in. I looked up the domestic violence statistics in NZ as mentioned by a PP and he's plainly well immersed in the culture. But, like I said, my (gay, if it's important) brother also disagrees with me but never made me feel like my opinion was worthless or harmful to others. My dad is feeling very old!! My mum had to listen to me ranting on the phone (parents live other side of the country to me). My sister is an unknown quantity but I'm guessing has fallen for the BeKind (but only to men). To be fair, until Graham Lenihan was reinstated, that I read about here, then kept reading on this forum, I did too.

OP posts:
Abhannmor · 29/03/2023 13:33

Fubbs · 28/03/2023 20:36

I'm waiting on Helen's book to arrive and ordered that other one about personal journeys into being peaked today, the title escapes me!

I think i feel better that I'm not shouting into a void. I feel more relaxed today. Having said that, I got a notification that my brother has posted another message but it can wait until tomorrow. He's getting no more headspace from me!

Good for you. Leave it unanswered until you can formulate a nice bland holding message. Oddly enough I'm here because of two young men I met about 5 years ago.

I was vaguely aware from the background radiation that Graham Linehan had upset 'liberal ' people with his views on trans and this saddened me , as a huge Fr Ted fan. Anyway I was talking to two young guys who work in the Arts and asked them why Glinner had moved to the right - as I then saw it.

' I agree with him completely ' said one as his friend nodded. ' But I'd never admit it - I'd be torn to pieces.' This lad was gay and getting a lot of feedback on this issue from lesbians. It gave me a new slant on the whole thing. He advised me not to argue with friends. This makes sense given the circles we move in.

The arts / media is pretty incestuous even in more populous nations. We need to tell politicians there's no votes in Donegal NE ( eg) for curbing women's rights or children's safety.

@ScrollingLeaves - why do you think Brexit will save the UK from these batshit American ideologies?

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 29/03/2023 19:08

Ah, I am in NZ and have resolutely not brought this topic up with my DB - also in NZ, very left leaning (champagne socialist, liberal elite, gay). I love him dearly and cannot bear the thought of us being at opposite ends of this debate.

I don’t know how he thinks - he could be gender critical, for all I know.

Quite frankly, as an intelligent gay man, I don’t know how he can’t be GC (he’s same sex attracted, not same gender), but I’m constantly amazed at the cognitive dissonance of so many gay men on this topic. But of course, they identify with feminine-presenting men, and they’ll never have to sleep with transwomen - and the thought of sleeping with a transman just doesn’t even occur to them.

Anyway. This morning I read a fantastic article on Substack about exactly this topic - friends and family members realising they’re at opposite ends of the divide, and a Gender Critical response from one friend to another.

I think it’s behind a paywall so I’ll copy and paste it into another post. You can also try googling ‘Substack, The Ministry has fallen’.

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 29/03/2023 19:15

From: Substack - The Ministry Has Fallen

Hiiiiii.

Howzit?!

I'm not sure which post of mine you're referring to, but I think I could safely apply your question to any of my posts of the past few days.

I will say this: None of my posts is anti-trans.

As to whether my posts are transphobic, though?

Almost certainly.

It's very difficult—without radically changing one's basic and reasonable understandings and experiences of the world—to avoid being transphobic.

  • I believe that the sexes are more real and hence more socially important than gender identity. That makes me transphobic.
  • I believe that the bodies of males and females have different capabilities from each other. That makes me transphobic.
  • I think it is mad to have males competing with and against females in female sport events. That makes me transphobic.
  • I think it is wrong and cruel to subject female prisoners to males in their cells. That makes me transphobic.
  • I think transing children is abusive, and stopping their natural healthy growth is extreme abuse. That makes me transphobic.
  • I fail to celebrate, and actually find it tragic when people wish to surgically remove healthy, functioning parts of their bodies. That makes me transphobic.

Depending on the day, it can be transphobic to recognise somebody's sex, to call a trans person 'trans', to fail to call a trans person 'trans', to say 'transwoman' instead of 'trans woman', to acknowledge—or even think—about somebody's 'dead name'.

I have long since quit caring about being 'transphobic'.

But I am NOT anti-trans.

  • For me it would be anti-trans to, for example, not give a shit about the safety and welfare of trans-identified males (or transwomen, if you like) if they were at risk of violence or intimidation.
  • It would be anti-trans to deny or compromise a person's access to basic services and housing on the basis of their being trans.

Trans people obviously deserve to be happy and flourish just as anybody else does.

They deserve to be able to participate in society like everybody else.

None of these things, though, should force others to have to give up any of their rights.

Women and girls should be and are entitled to have single-sex spaces.

And women and girls needn't prove that males pose some greater or lesser degree of risk to them before they earn a right to dedicated male-free spaces. The simple fact of wishing to be only with other women—not least in intimate spaces like changing rooms, toilets, and rape crisis centres—is enough reason to grant women a right to their own spaces.

Men and boys should be and are entitled to single-sex spaces, too.

Lesbians should not have to face the prospect of lesbian-identifying males on their dating apps or in their lesbian-dedicated spaces.

If others wish to create mixed-sex 'lesbian' scenes, including willing females and males, then they are free to do so.

Lesbians who wish to maintain their own dedicated lesbian spaces should not be shamed or intimidated for it.

Sadly, lesbians are shamed, intimidated, and penalised for attempting to maintain female-only lesbian spaces.

They are kicked out of dating apps and bars that were traditionally lesbian-only.

Sportswomen who would complain about having to compete against males are threatened with disqualification by their organisation.

Women prisoners are not only encouraged to keep quiet about males in their prisons, but are threatened with extra time slapped on their sentences if they do complain.

Women raped by men who identify as women are forced—under threat of legal punishment—to perform the cruel and gaslighting indignity of referring to their rapists as 'she' in courts of law.

And those rapists’ offences end up being counted as female-committed criminal statistics.

I could go on.

But there is well more than enough in all this ^ to make me reject what is demanded by the gender identity movement.

. . .

And I used to support all this.

Why wouldn't I want to support a marginal community? Especially one actively being marginalised.

Why wouldn't I support the unique health needs of a minority community of people?

Why wouldn't I want to support the rights of such people?

So I supported the gender identity movement and respected all of its claims, requests and directives.

I did have some doubts at the time:

  • Aren't these definitions and embodiments of girlhood, boyhood, womanhood, and manhood based on stereotypes, and regressive, limiting ones at that?; and doesn't all this in fact reinforce the conservative male/female social norms that feminists did so well to critique and overcome in the 60s, 70s, and 80s?
  • How can it be 'authentic' to reject your very body? To reject your very sex? These things are at the very base of our constitution. Disembodiment and dissociation strike me as profoundly non-authentic.
  • Why and how do my friends find it in themselves to celebrate when one of our friend group wants to cut her healthy breasts off?

These doubts and reservations niggled at me for years.

I wondered how everybody around me could sit so easily with these things.

How could it be?

And whenever I did hear about anyone in the world holding similar concerns, it just happened that they were always super-conservative, religious, homophobic, far-right hateful types.

In 2021, during the parliamentary passage of the BDMRR bill, which included a section proposing the introduction of sex self-ID, the religious, far-right, hate group Speak Up For Women came across my radar again, as it had objections to the bill.

After having lapped up the correct narrative about SUFW years earlier, I was ready to support whatever they didn't.

Somebody made what turned out to be a very fateful and helpful comment that there was nothing to back up these claims of SUFW being a 'hate' group.

So I became curious enough to seek out more information myself.

For once, I read SUFW material for myself, instead of deferring to the 'hate group' narratives from my friends and other fellow progressive travellers.

It turned out its reservations and criticisms about gender identity policies were rather like my own. It all seemed quite reasonable.

Most importantly, I saw zero 'hate'.

And SUFW's positions came from a place of reason and compassion. Not from religion or some conservative, far-right ideology.

In fact, SUFW's core organisation was made up of progressive, left-wing feminists! All of them Green (or former-Green) Party members and supporters!

How strange!

Anyway, long story short, I very quickly came to learn that a whole lot of what the gender identity movement had to say about those with different positions was absolutely fabricated out of whole cloth. Often, shockingly, complete lies.

This was the beginning of the end.

I realised very quickly that all of the slurs and accusations aimed at those questioning ANY tenet of gender identity were horribly dishonest distraction and smear techniques.

It seemed that gender identitarians were willing to do anything to avoid having open, honest conversations about how their beliefs and proposals might work in the real world.

Gender identity advocates would choose instead to denigrate anyone honest or brave enough to raise reasonable questions and concerns by labelling them somehow 'far-right', 'hateful', or even 'Nazi' or 'fascist' (?!).

They would also default, in lieu of any open, good-faith discussion of issues, to solemnly reciting opaque mantras like 'TWAW’
and 'TRAHR' —And anyone understandably curious enough to ask for an explanation as to what exactly these mantras meant and how those meanings were arrived at were not only criticised but socially ostracised (?!) and deemed somehow evil and untrustworthy. For a movement so keen to present itself as loving and kind to have such inhuman and bullying norms of behaviour was just mind-boggling.
It all struck me as being horribly cult-like. And it still does.

It's so ironic that the side that makes no great show of being on the 'right side of history' or 'kind' is the one that does not by default refer to its opponents in debate as 'hateful' or 'bigots' or 'Nazis' or 'fascists' or 'far-Right', etc.

And this rather more modest side does not bully its adherents for asking honest, reasonable questions.

What a change.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on.

But I really felt the need to give you the full explanation and story .

I have lost friends since being public about my views.

I have been ostracised by whole friend circles. It's wild.

I thought their views were as harmful and objectionable as they did mine, and yet I was fully able and willing to continue our dear and precious friendships.

Somehow, that wasn't reciprocated.

I HATE the thought that something like my having different views on sex and gender might possibly get between me and you.

It's hard to fathom that it could.

But my anxiety around that conceivable possibility is why I decided to spill out all this.
XO

ScrollingLeaves · 29/03/2023 19:25

@Abhannmor Abhannmor · Today 13:33
You asked me , why do you think Brexit will save the UK from these batshit American ideologies?

I am not particularly knowledgeable, but I think one of the things that pushed the Gender Recognition Act 2004 was something related to a European ruling.

Also, following this, the ECHR may have said that it saying that to require surgery for a GRC would be wrong ( which I can understand but given the GRC says someone is a woman who has access to women’s spaces when they are not a female makes this especially problematic).

Then if you see what is happening in Europe, I think women have lost more rights to transwomen than here, such as males who say they are females in football in Spain, plenty of madness in France, Germany and probably Italy.

So I have the impression we may have been given time to pause and think with less rushed through.

Please understand, this is all vague on my part.

BurrosTail · 29/03/2023 19:43

Ask him if he’s comfortable with his own daughter showering next to someone’s male genitalia in the local swimming pool female showers.

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 29/03/2023 19:47

BurrosTail · 29/03/2023 19:43

Ask him if he’s comfortable with his own daughter showering next to someone’s male genitalia in the local swimming pool female showers.

That, on its own, doesn’t get through to the male TWAW brigade because, after all, TWAW, so there’s no need to feel threatened by that scenario, and you’re transphobic if you do.

They wouldn’t feel threatened, so why should you, or your daughter?

RosaBonheur · 29/03/2023 19:56

ScrollingLeaves · 29/03/2023 19:25

@Abhannmor Abhannmor · Today 13:33
You asked me , why do you think Brexit will save the UK from these batshit American ideologies?

I am not particularly knowledgeable, but I think one of the things that pushed the Gender Recognition Act 2004 was something related to a European ruling.

Also, following this, the ECHR may have said that it saying that to require surgery for a GRC would be wrong ( which I can understand but given the GRC says someone is a woman who has access to women’s spaces when they are not a female makes this especially problematic).

Then if you see what is happening in Europe, I think women have lost more rights to transwomen than here, such as males who say they are females in football in Spain, plenty of madness in France, Germany and probably Italy.

So I have the impression we may have been given time to pause and think with less rushed through.

Please understand, this is all vague on my part.

OK, first of all, the ECHR (European Convention on Human Rights) is a treaty. It is not the same as the EU (a supranational organisation), although countries wanting to join the EU do now need to be signed up to the ECHR.

The ECHR predates the existence of the EU by quite a long way, the UK was one of the founding members and we are still members (although some of the Tories talk about withdrawing from it from time to time).

Although the ECHR is much older than gender ideology, I believe the European Court of Human Rights (the court which is responsible for interpreting and enforcing the treaty) has now ruled that is it a fundamental human right to have your gender recognised, so member countries must have some mechanism for recognising a transgender person's chosen gender. This means that unless the UK withdraws from the ECHR (an entirely separate thing from the EU) it cannot simply repeal the Gender Recognition Act and no longer recognise trans people's chosen gender. Or it could, but it would be in breach of its treaty obligations and subject to potential sanctions.

In reality these obligations can be interpreted in different ways by different member countries (except for very obvious things like the right to life, i.e. no member country can reintroduce the death penalty). For this reason it's difficult to compare how laws relating to gender recognition are applied in different European countries. I think it's pretty cultural as well. For example, I'm in France and although I think the laws around gender recognition are technically liberal here, French people are on the whole pretty socially conservative and so most of the time trans people seem to keep a low profile so as not to rock the boat. I'm not aware of any trans women in women's prisons in France, for example, or competing in women's sports.