Grey area on trans rights

[Spyrothedragon23]

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

Partly because in some schools it’s definitely not 0.2% of teens!

A third of the girls in my stepdaughter’s year 10 group identified as trans. They are now year 12 and a few have desisted but most go back and forth between transman or nonbinary transmasc. Some identify as men whilst wearing the most genderconforming outfits imaginable (they just want a new name, special pronouns and their breasts amputated)

(300 kids in the year, approx 50/50 M/F, so 150 girls, 50 of which identified as transmen or nonbinary. State secondary in a naice area of SE England)

Trans Women Are Women.

No there isn't another group that have been so successful in rapidly altering reality to suit themselves. Most Vulnerable and Oppressed Evah though.

I find it keeps ever clearer by the way to use the word sex when I mean sex, as genderwoo has co-opted the word "gender" and it is no longer a naice synonym for sex (unless sleight of hand makes it useful for it to be).

Thank you.

It’s all baffling to me, but maybe I’m a dinosaur. I can’t, for example, understand why some people can embrace the TWAW concept, but would presumably be up in arms if I were to suddenly identify as a Chinese female. I feel I’d be accused of cultural appropriation pretty quickly.

But isn’t it in theory possible that I do have some Chinese ancestors, and thus arguably “some” objective / scientific justification for making that argument about my identity (I’m not; but it illustrates the point about science / facts being ignored; I appreciate there is a cultural component to being any ethnicity).

Like many here, I started out where you are OP.
I am a life long left wing voter, and always thought of myself as liberal and 'progressive'. I cried when I watched 'Boys don't cry' in the cinema, and wished people would be more accepting.

SInce I understood what TRA's are asking for, I have totally come out of the 'grey'. There is no grey area or compromise between 'Transwomen are women for ALL purposes' and 'no they're not'.

When I was first having my awareness raised, I saw toilets as the greyest area.
We're all in separate cubicles with doors, so what difference can it make if a man, who is so distressed about his sex that he has had genital surgery and medical treatment to look more like a woman, is in there as well? He only needs to pee, right?

Then I read more about how some women, less fortunate than myself, feel about being vulnerable in the presence of a strange male. Women who have been victims of male violence may have such a strong fear response to strange males that they are unable to use mixed sex toilets. If there are no female only toilets available for them they may have to exclude themselves from full participation in society.

I have read the sexual fantasies of autogynephiles on Reddit, about the sexual thrill they get when using women's toilets, and even how they search through sanitary bins for used tampons. I have seen the videos men have posted on Twitter, filming themselves masturbating in the presence of unsuspecting women. Women should not be used as props in men's sexual fetishes.

As a teenage girl, I was 'flashed' by men several times. Every woman I have ever asked has experienced this. We know that 'flashing' can escalate to more serious crimes. If a man is accused of flashing in a park, at least he can't argue that he had a legitimate reason for his penis being exposed. This is a lot of more difficult in a toilet - he may have 'accidentally left the door ajar'. Why would we make it easier for these men to get their sexual thrills?

The problem isn't that all trans identifying males want to use women's toilets for nefarious purposes - I'm sure the vast majority of them really do just want to pee. But if you allow ANY males in, you let them ALL in. There is no way of distinguishing a male with severe gender dysphoria who has had genital surgery from a chancer in a skirt. They all look the same.

We have to say NO to all of them.

Here's why.

There were 3 swimming ponds.

One for men
One mixed
One for women.

So the trans activists and their people who have the power to do so, got it changed so that the 3 ponds were:
One for men
One for mixed
One for women and men who said they were women.

So for men who want single sex swimming, they had one.
For people who wanted mixed sex swimming, they had 2.
For women who wanted single sex swimming, they had none.

This has been going on for years. Almost every institution and department has been infiltrated and is actively lying to people about what they are seeing with their own eyes.

The NHS runs a single sex ward policy, unless you say you are the other sex and then they secretly let them into the opposite sex ward and not only don't tell the others in the ward, but when one woman was raped on one, they denied any men were in there and actively withheld this information from the police for a whole year, even when there was CCTV evidence of the rape. So gaslighting the woman who was raped, those supporting her and the police who could have taken action against the rapist. It is an actual policy to pretend that this isn't happening.

You may be baffled by this. But all this has been documented on here, for people baffled about why we are so angry about it all.

I think that's a common misconception - that this is just about trans people and why should anyone else be bothered.
But the truth is, proponents of gender ideology are making claims about ALL people - that all of us have an innate 'gendered soul' which somehow overwrites biological reality.

But I don't believe in gendered souls, and in reality this does affect all of us because when laws and language and policy is changed to enforce gender ideology, it impacts the rest of us too.

Think about the fact that 10-15 years ago, women would have been far more accommodating of gender non conforming people than men. Until it was pushed too far.

So many people think that liberal, live and let live women woke up one day and decided to be bigots, instead of looking at the reality - that women started to realise that men dressing in a feminine way is one thing, but laws allowing them to change legal sex and access women's spaces is quite another.

That’s really interesting.

I’m a dinosaur, sorry! So to help me get it right, the “correct” terminology is “sex” is all about m/f; “gender” is more nuanced? (And thus I should have said “sex”, not “gender” in my original post to avoid a bollocking from the woke elite)?

It’s a minefield!

As for how 'we got ourselves into all this bother' - WE didn't.
Men who wanted access to female spaces (for fetish reasons primarily) got us into this by stealth and coercion, and by claiming some sort of victimhood status.
The bother then occurred because women have fought back and said no.

My original message wasn’t clear, sorry.

My bafflement is really about why and how such a small community came to seemingly have such a strong voice, and how that voice is arguably in danger of “trumping” other people’s voices.

Ah, fair enough. You're right it is quite astonishing.
There have been a few attempts to figure out how and why this has happened so quickly and become so widespread.

Jennifer Bilek has an excellent blog which explores how some of this came about, and the links to billionaires funding trans causes for their own reasons.
https://www.the11thhourblog.com/

James Kirkup did a few articles in the Spectator (I think?) talking about how this was pushed through politically. If you search for the IGLYO's report commissioned by Denton's law firm, it outlines some guidance on how to get these laws pushed through without resistance (basically keep it under the radar and out of media scrutiny, which is so sinister).

I think for the younger generation, they have been told to be kind and fear no being part of the in group.
I suppose if you add to that the ubiquity of social media, which can spread social contagions like never before, and the rise of medicalising everything that can help explain it.
The pharmaceutical companies benefit from children being put on hormones for life. and men benefit by gaining access to women's spaces. And mediocre men benefit by winning medals in women's sports.
What's the benefit for women though?

I've always thought this episode of the Gender a Wider Lens podcast is very good on this. Especially clear if anyone interested in the topic/debate has any experience or interest in psychology or therapy

It was all part of a strategy put together years ago. Called the Denton's Document, who were a law firm that advised activists on how to infiltrate society and normalise their [redacted] agenda.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

Also, it was taken up as a line of funding once gay rights such as marriage were enaced in law, those such as Stonewall were left with nothing left to do, so it helps them to maintain a good income stream.

And charities such as Mermaids, giving the mother of a child who she transed because her husband didn't want a gay son, which took their direction from support for kids with gender issues to become a charity that only affirms kids and points them straight to the clinics. Which in turn, because they get paid, are all too willing to take them on board and increase their funding and income streams.

Simply I'd call the person Jenny. In the same way I'd not use a derivative of someone's name if they didn't want to be called that i.e. Jen in place of Jennifer.

There have been a number of very committed activists working behind the scenes both here and abroad for decades.

They’ve even boasted about how they had to influence UK politicians under the radar because they knew the wider public wouldn’t support their aims.

One if the British activists involved in the GRA of 2004 has written a whole book about it.

Trans Britain: Our Journey from the Shadows

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trans-Britain-Christine-Burns/dp/1783528443/ref=asc_df_1783528443/

Christine Burns was a founder of Press For Change but pretty much every country and every international body and NGO (WHO, UN, Amnesty etc) has been lobbied by an equivalent of Press for Change.

Also, it was taken up as a line of funding once gay rights such as marriage were enaced in law, those such as Stonewall were left with nothing left to do, so it helps them to maintain a good income stream.

This is a really important point. Stonewall and other gay rights groups only really incorporated the trans agenda (by adding the T onto the LGB) in 2015, once gay marriage equality was achieved. It meant that they now had a new source of funding, and a new fight to fundraise for.

Not long ago, someone started a 'How did we get here?' thread on this for newcomers- a resource thread.
MN search function is not very effective and I can't find this. Can anyone else? Could be helpful?
Had links to the Denton's report, the GRA Hansard etc.

YY

See also: The Yogyakarta Principles:

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/yogyakarta-principles/

Feminist Current https://open.spotify.com/episode/7uT8UnZmkkxnVIqPuhL6fr

Yes, Meghan Murphy interview with Robert Wintermute is excellent in this. Shared it with a friend who was new to this debate and she found it really enlightening. Plus, he has a lovely voice to listen to!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3230094-When-How-did-the-transgender-debate-start?page=1

I found this but it’s quite old so perhaps not the one you were thinking of?

I'm sure there was a much more recent one Crypto. I'll keep looking

The OP never came back....

But hopefully this thread will be helpful for lurkers who have the same concerns.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

If you are changing the way you speak then it is affecting you isn't it? You may not mind changing the way you speak (and it probably doesn't matter if we chose to do it for friends or relatives) but many other people do mind. I used not to mind but I've come to realise that when people start to control the way we speak it is not long before they start to control other stuff. Also it becomes very difficult to campaign for women's right and policies if we lose our ability to use plain common use language.

As Helen Stanisland (I think) once said "it starts with pronouns and ends with a 6 ft male getting their cock out in the female changing room." This about sums it up for me.

I suspect recent events relating to the appalling smearing and subsequent physical assault on KJK has brought in a new batch of lurkers/soon to be Mumsnetters so efforts to answer questions won’t be wasted!

If only mumsnet would tell us about hit spikes, eh?

In my search I re- discovered this too. Another good one for newbies:
https://bprice.substack.com/p/trans-is-something-we-made-up

All very informative, thank you to everyone who posted. I’ll read up!

It’s Sunday afternoon so I’m going to identify as a hibernating bear - gorge myself on food then have a snooze 🐻