Sky News: Starmer will lose the election on day 1 unless he shifts his trans rights position

[SirSamVimesCityWatch]

Apologies if there's already a thread. This appeared last night on the Sky News.

It seems that some grown ups people in the Labour party are finally paying attention.

https://news.sky.com/story/keir-starmer-will-lose-election-campaign-on-day-one-over-his-trans-rights-position-labour-strategists-warn-12841099

[smileladiesplease]

It's hilarious that sturgeon has single handedly and inadvertently brought the whole ridiculous nonsense to public attention snd been politically destroyed by her own bull shit.
I reakon JK Rowling cursed her.

Kier will say anything to get elected so don't trust him one iota.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

@RoyalCorgi

I actually agree that this isn't a massive issue for most of the electorate. But that doesn't mean it won't be a vote-loser.

So imagine you have a Labour candidate interviewed on the tv, and he has all the right policies on the NHS, social care, refugees, violence against women, tackling crime, inflation - whatever you care to name. And you nod along. Yes, you think, this sounds good. I could vote for this.

And then the interviewer asks him: what is a woman? Or: do you think the rapist Isla Bryson is a woman? Or do only women have a cervix?

And then he stumbles and fumbles and says that a woman is "someone who identifies as a woman." And that Isla Bryson shouldn't be in a women's prison because "she" is a rapist. And that it's wrong to say only women can have a cervix because some men have a cervix too.

At that point you realise the politician in front of you is a fecking eejit and you vow never to vote for him, no matter what his policies are.

Exactly. This is the issue for Labour.

[MarshaBradyo]

Makes a change from the polls show people don’t care

Turns out some people have finally worked out they do.

Labour won’t change though

[MarshaBradyo]

@smileladiesplease

It's hilarious that sturgeon has single handedly and inadvertently brought the whole ridiculous nonsense to public attention snd been politically destroyed by her own bull shit.
I reakon JK Rowling cursed her.

Kier will say anything to get elected so don't trust him one iota.

It’s the images that do it

The pink leggings one, the Barbie K atrocity

All the words can’t deliver as much of a punch as a simple male image and the reality of what’s going on

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

In which a man boggles at a woman saying she won't vote Labour in Uxbridge to get Boris out because Starmer won't say what a woman is, and a whole lot of Labour bros line up in the comments to patronise her and call her names.

twitter.com/edcmpbl/status/1638967017607688207?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

[RoyalCorgi]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

In which a man boggles at a woman saying she won't vote Labour in Uxbridge to get Boris out because Starmer won't say what a woman is, and a whole lot of Labour bros line up in the comments to patronise her and call her names.

twitter.com/edcmpbl/status/1638967017607688207?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

They no longer bother to hide their contempt for women, do they?

Some excellent replies, though.

[MarshaBradyo]

Re pp and it’s just mn if it were Sturgeon wouldn’t be such a learning opportunity

That’s why they’re concerned. They know it can be political career ending

[NotHavingIt]

@GoChasingWaterfalls

I appreciate that this is a massive issue on Mumsnet but I really think we're in a bubble on this one.

Most voters won't have this issue in their top ten.

A YouGov surgery from last year showed that 24% of people paid it no attention at all and 42 % paid little attention:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

What's more, other polls consistently have voters primarily focused on other issues and it will be these that win or lose the election:

"In the latest period, we asked adults what they feel are important issues facing the UK today. The most commonly reported issues were:

the cost of living (93%)

the NHS (84%)

the economy (74%)

climate change and the environment (61%)"

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/wellbeing/bulletins/publicopinionsandsocialtrendsgreatbritain/22februaryto5march2023#important-issues-facing-the-uk

My guess is that Starmer may lose a few % points over this issue, but overall the bigger problems facing the country, coupled with the mess that is the Tory party, will swing it for him. Polls have had Labour consistently in the high 40s low 50s for months now. It's just a question of how big their majority is going to be.

I don't think anyone believes that this issue alone is going to prevent Labour from being elected. I suggest that rather what will happen is that until there is greater clarity from Starmer around Gender Self Id - it will continue to be an issue that crops up time and time again. They are not going to be able to escape from it; and the Tories will certainly use it to create some broad daylight between them and Labour in the eyes of the electorate.

If the Labout party looks and sounds unhinged and out of tune with public sentiments on this issue - then it could well put question marks in the minds of some of those who might be wavering. It will also not go away - and it will mar their first weeks and months in office.

Action and publicity will be ramping up over the coming year and as we move towards conference season. The Labour party cannot afford to suppress the Labour Women's Declaration any longer.

It is not as if the Labour party has any great new and inspiring ideas - they are just riding the waves of the arse end of 13 years of the same old bunch in power, along with the difficult financial situation that the country faces ( along with other countries to a greater or lesser extent).

[Pixiedust1234]

I think the general public dont really understand what a transwoman is. Many are still under the delusion that they are taking hormones and had painful surgery after suffering a near mental breakdown and suicidal thoughts over several years. Many dont realise a man (usually with a beard) just has to say the magic words.

[BloodyHellKen]

@GoChasingWaterfalls

I appreciate that this is a massive issue on Mumsnet but I really think we're in a bubble on this one.

Most voters won't have this issue in their top ten.

A YouGov surgery from last year showed that 24% of people paid it no attention at all and 42 % paid little attention:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

What's more, other polls consistently have voters primarily focused on other issues and it will be these that win or lose the election:

"In the latest period, we asked adults what they feel are important issues facing the UK today. The most commonly reported issues were:

the cost of living (93%)

the NHS (84%)

the economy (74%)

climate change and the environment (61%)"

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/wellbeing/bulletins/publicopinionsandsocialtrendsgreatbritain/22februaryto5march2023#important-issues-facing-the-uk

My guess is that Starmer may lose a few % points over this issue, but overall the bigger problems facing the country, coupled with the mess that is the Tory party, will swing it for him. Polls have had Labour consistently in the high 40s low 50s for months now. It's just a question of how big their majority is going to be.

WRT Labours stance on self-ID:

A YouGov surgery from last year showed that 24% of people paid it no attention at all and 42 % paid little attention:

So 73% of people paid attention to the issue and 58% paid it a little attention....To me that sounds like something that is quite important to a lot of people and the electioneering/mudslinging over this issue hasn't even started yet.

[NotHavingIt]

@Pixiedust1234

I think the general public dont really understand what a transwoman is. Many are still under the delusion that they are taking hormones and had painful surgery after suffering a near mental breakdown and suicidal thoughts over several years. Many dont realise a man (usually with a beard) just has to say the magic words.

Unles they read the Guardian and don't pay any attention to social media I think a growing number do. It is the job of anyone for whom this is an issue to keep pushing it over the course of this year and beyond, at every opportunity afforded.

[Datun]

@Pixiedust1234

I think the general public dont really understand what a transwoman is. Many are still under the delusion that they are taking hormones and had painful surgery after suffering a near mental breakdown and suicidal thoughts over several years. Many dont realise a man (usually with a beard) just has to say the magic words.

Indeed. Which is why Isla Bryson peaked so many.

Not just a male. One with an intact penis. That he uses to rape women.

It's the extremes of trans ideology that have got these politicians in so much trouble.

While the shift was happening, they didn't recognise it. Their collective imagination just couldn't be arsed to fast forward in order to see what it would mean for women.

Unlike feminists, for whom that is their raisin d'etre.

So now, men are literally women - and literally on the basis of saying some magic words.

And we saw from that Julia Hartley Brewer interview that they still don't realise. Reeves genuinely appeared to think that she could still decide that it was not really that important. Something to bat away, to ignore, to gloss over. Not a priority.

And it's too late. I was wondering if they could row back from the extremism, whilst maintaining a certain level of trans demands.

They can't.

They could say, well they're not literally women. Then they will get asked, so what are they then?

If they're not women, why are we giving women's stuff to them on the basis that they are?

i'm almost looking forward to the electioneering.

[Helleofabore]

@GoChasingWaterfalls

I appreciate that this is a massive issue on Mumsnet but I really think we're in a bubble on this one.

Most voters won't have this issue in their top ten.

A YouGov surgery from last year showed that 24% of people paid it no attention at all and 42 % paid little attention:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

What's more, other polls consistently have voters primarily focused on other issues and it will be these that win or lose the election:

"In the latest period, we asked adults what they feel are important issues facing the UK today. The most commonly reported issues were:

the cost of living (93%)

the NHS (84%)

the economy (74%)

climate change and the environment (61%)"

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/wellbeing/bulletins/publicopinionsandsocialtrendsgreatbritain/22februaryto5march2023#important-issues-facing-the-uk

My guess is that Starmer may lose a few % points over this issue, but overall the bigger problems facing the country, coupled with the mess that is the Tory party, will swing it for him. Polls have had Labour consistently in the high 40s low 50s for months now. It's just a question of how big their majority is going to be.

As others have pointed out, these statistics were all pre-Adam Bryant.

Do you honestly think that has had no impact? Considering it was a major cause of Sturgeon resigning?

I suggest that might be wishful thinking on your behalf.

Yes, it might not be listed in polls as a 'major concern'. However, when campaigning starts in earnest, unless the party makes significant changes to their position, every candidate will be constantly asked about their position on males in female prisons and what the definition is of a woman.

Do you think any voter who is not aware of this will hear these answers and think if this candidate is going to be so dishonest about this clearly proven scientific issue of women being only adult human female and then the nonsense of prisons, then I cannot trust them at all?

Seriously? Who is going to trust a person who supports males going into female prisons, and who provides a definition of woman that includes males? Only someone who is ideologically driven.

[dimorphism]

What's interesting is that the Conservatives thought this was a way win the votes of a certain demographic and went along with it too for a while, but they had the savvy to see that the tide was turning, to realise how ridiculous they sounded when people started talking about 'her penis' etc and to do a quick about turn back to reality at just the right moment.

Or if you believe they're not just all opportunists, some of them may have realised the damage to women and children. After all it was Javid I think who ordered the Cass review and he did a very good thing with this. I do believe there are still politicians of conviction on both left (Rose Duffield) and right (Kemi Badenoch) but they are few and far between.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually think there might be more politicians of conviction in the Tories. It is a very low bar, of course.

[Beowulfa]

@smileladiesplease

It's hilarious that sturgeon has single handedly and inadvertently brought the whole ridiculous nonsense to public attention snd been politically destroyed by her own bull shit.
I reakon JK Rowling cursed her.

Kier will say anything to get elected so don't trust him one iota.

Credit must go to the photographer who got the glorious shot of a convicted rapist with his cock visible through his woman costume pink leggings.

[dimorphism]

Another decent politician - Miriam Cates. Still standing up after being subjected to the naked male aggression of LRM. Wonderful woman.

[AlisonDonut]

I'm sure Nicola Sturgeon thought it was a niche issue too.

[MarshaBradyo]

@AlisonDonut

I'm sure Nicola Sturgeon thought it was a niche issue too.

Exactly all the polls quoted don’t change this outcome.

[DevilinaCardigan]

A wise women on here once said that if they lie to me about not knowing what a woman is, how can I trust them on any other issue?

Also, the dismissive attitude towards women who have been raising issues around self ID for years, who were told ‘that never happens’. Then the fake shocked ‘i had no idea- no one raised any issues’ when something does happen. Slimy shits.

[Datun]

What's interesting is that the Conservatives thought this was a way win the votes of a certain demographic and went along with it too for a while, but they had the savvy to see that the tide was turning, to realise how ridiculous they sounded when people started talking about 'her penis' etc and to do a quick about turn back to reality at just the right moment.

it's still very worrying.

Maria Miller presided over the trans equality report by listening to the testimony of people like Jane Fae, who advocates for violent and extreme porn and lowering the age of the participants, Jess Bradley, who exposed themselves at work and Action for Trans Health, who demand all trans prisoners should be immediately released and have permission to operate on one another.

Clearly zero credibility for any of them at best and unhinged, misogynistic batshittery at worst.

And when women objected, Maria Miller furiously dismissed them as 'women purporting to be feminists'.

It's extremely concerning that there doesn't seem to be any element of common sense in a lot of these politicians. Who the fuck can look at half these people and not have an immediate klaxon of dire alarm going off that you can hear from space?

Yes they turned themselves around at the 11th hour, but only because so many women basically went right into their faces and said look, what the fuck!?

[Pixiedust1234]

Unfortunately my family think Isla has been unfairly treated. They also think Isla is waiting for surgery. They think Isla will eventually look more womanlike and anyone who says otherwise is a nasty piece of work. Isla would never rape again because Isla is a real woman now.

My DH thinks it was the 8yr calling trouble at the spa by looking. It was her fault.

DD1 thinks TWAW. She was taught this at school and has A level biology so stupid mum is out of date with current science and knows nothing. Been told that to my face. Also called me terf (I was so proud to be called that, my reaction did confuse her 😂).

DD2 gets tearful and says what about her friends who are transmen. People like me make their life soooo much harder, please be nice mummy. (One friend is autistic, another has an abusive father, third is/would have been a lesbian in old money, honestly).

All three think JKR is a nasty shitstirrer and deserves the online hate. I cant convince them because I'm just a stupid out of date woman, who isn't very bright (based purely on me being middle aged, a woman, and a mother). All three hate the Conservatives as much as they hate terfs.

All three are voters.

[HereForTheFreeLunch]

@chilling19

I think KJK standing against him should be causing him some distress. Can you imagine them going head to head on TV? KJK will wipe the floor with him.

I had forgotten this. I want to move to his constituency to attend the hustings.
It will be epic!

[BettyFilous]

@HereForTheFreeLunch

I had forgotten this. I want to move to his constituency to attend the hustings.
It will be epic!

I am sure KJK will ensure it’s recorded. I hope so. It will be informative.

[Batmammy]

Yesterday my 80+ year old parents, who are lifelong Labour voters, spontaneously brought up this subject. Both expressed reservations about Starmer based on his inability to defend women’s hard won rights. This issue has finally broken through to the mainstream. A year ago neither of them would have had a clue but Sturgeon and Isla Bryson well and truly opened their eyes.

[NettleTea]

he needs to gen up on the whole thing pretty damn quick.

one solution, and its really not the solution that I would opt for (as I would scrap the GRA and all GRCs post haste) would be to draw distinct lines between sex and gender - after all it was the gender lot that changed the definition to suit themselves and muddy the waters so that most people still think that transgender means transexual.

so allow people to change their gender til the cows come home. allow them a GRC, and stop them being (allegedly) discriminated against.

But remove the ability to change your birth certificate, because that records SEX, not gender, and the reason it was ever allowed (gay marriage) is a non issue anymore.

And shore up the places and spaces that are sex segregated, Exemptions wont be needed because there will be no more 'legally female' men. just gender men. and as things are back to sex segregation no CRC will give admission. And make the exemptions absolute for the few whove already got those bits of false paper.