Sky News: Starmer will lose the election on day 1 unless he shifts his trans rights position

[SirSamVimesCityWatch]

Apologies if there's already a thread. This appeared last night on the Sky News.

It seems that some grown ups people in the Labour party are finally paying attention.

https://news.sky.com/story/keir-starmer-will-lose-election-campaign-on-day-one-over-his-trans-rights-position-labour-strategists-warn-12841099

[Chersfrozenface]

See, that's the thing with Jamie Wallis.

He doesn't say he wants to be a women.

He says he wants to be "trans". Whatever that is, He hasn't defined or described it.

I wonder what he thinks "trans" is.

(Apart from a get-treated-leniently card when caught speeding or other law-breaking, which is what a person could easily imply from his actions, not what he himself has said.)

[BloodyHellKen]

the present Govt has made it easier and easier for men to become "women" with more gender clinics and around 420 men each year getting a GRC, with hardly any refused

If these 420 have had surgery, or plan to in the very near future and take hormones etc and have been professionally assessed then I personally don't have a problem with them having a GRC. I don't welcome surgery on physically healthy people for gender dysphoria any more than I welcome telling anorexics they are actually fat and should lose some weight, but that is an argument for another time.

It's the self ID where literally and Tom, Dick or Harry can 'be a woman' I have issue with which is very much a left wing thing IMO.

which party has a trans MP who got huge sympathy and understanding from especially his own tory MPs when he announced he was in fact a woman

You must be referring to Jamie Wallis the MP who 'wants to be trans' (his words), still uses he/him pronouns, dresses in traditional male clothing and to all intents and purposes is a man (who like dressing in women's clothing) 😂

From where I'm sitting it is (unfortunately) very much a left wing thing.

[Howpo]

There seems to be plenty on the right (in the UK) who pander to this rubbish too.
Like Brexit, its a not a simple left right issue, as much as some would like it to be, the present Govt has made it easier and easier for men to become "women" with more gender clinics and around 420 men each year getting a GRC, with hardly any refused.

I believe Terresa May started the ball rolling most recently, then Sturgeon and which party has a trans MP who got huge sympathy and understanding from especially his own tory MPs when he announced he was in fact a woman.

[ZuttZeVootEeeVo]

@Waitwhat23

When a politician says TWAW, they either -

a) actually believe that human beings can magically change sex, in case I seriously question their intelligence and critical thinking skills

or

b) don't actually believe it but don't have the personal or moral integrity to challenge those who insist in the existence of a magical gender fairy and are trying to force through poor legislation, in which case I don't trust them to challenge anything.

Its just as likely sexist stereotypes - woman wears lipstick and dresses, a man a scowl and checked shirt.

Or they believe men have the right to definine woman and be one if they wish? And so what if children and womrn get hurt in the process.

Whatever the reason, its not good.

[BreadInCaptivity]

The fundamental problem for me is that if you say TWAW you simultaneously are and logically have to mean that women are Trans women.

Both are true or neither are true insofar you have to understand what a woman is in order to state a male can identify into that identity.

Once you state that you are enforcing not only the existence of "gender" (irrespective of any evidence that it is anything beyond a social construct) but prescribing a gender identity on people irrespective of their wishes/feelings/authentic selves/lived existence.

That's not a liberal concept. It's authoritarian.

It's not progressive.

The premise of gender ideology is insidious and creates a wedge for future violations of reality and safeguarding - the rise of MAP and Incel propaganda doesn't exist within a vacuum.

Voting for a party that's infected by this ideology begs the question what else it's susceptible to.

Labour have a long way to go before they really are in a position to be elected and despite current polling, I'll place a bet they won't be in govt after the next GE unless there is a very substantive change in approach.

[Waitwhat23]

When a politician says TWAW, they either -

a) actually believe that human beings can magically change sex, in case I seriously question their intelligence and critical thinking skills

or

b) don't actually believe it but don't have the personal or moral integrity to challenge those who insist in the existence of a magical gender fairy and are trying to force through poor legislation, in which case I don't trust them to challenge anything.

[Abhannmor]

@PorcelinaV

It's partly left vs right. The agenda is being created by progressives even if some Tories go along with it. And which media is willing to give a platform to opponents? Media like Fox News.

This is about the American population but shows the difference between Democrats and Republicans on the sports issue:

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/29/1107484965/transgender-athletes-trans-rights-gender-transition-poll

Another clunky read across from North American culture which some European parties, bereft of their own ideology, have tried to map onto their local politics.

This is what happens when you chuck your founding principles in the bin as Labour has done. People see through it. If they were a party of the left this bollox would be irrelevant to them.

[MarshaBradyo]

@PorcelinaV

It's partly left vs right. The agenda is being created by progressives even if some Tories go along with it. And which media is willing to give a platform to opponents? Media like Fox News.

This is about the American population but shows the difference between Democrats and Republicans on the sports issue:

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/29/1107484965/transgender-athletes-trans-rights-gender-transition-poll

Generally gender ideology does sit with the left. Worldwide I’m western democracies anyway.

Looking at various parties and beliefs

[PorcelinaV]

@Abhannmor

Stop with this drivel about Momentum already.

This is not left / right. Blairites like Cooper , Creasey and Kinnock are TWAW. As are many Tories , Liberals Greens and Plaid Cymru.

It's partly left vs right. The agenda is being created by progressives even if some Tories go along with it. And which media is willing to give a platform to opponents? Media like Fox News.

This is about the American population but shows the difference between Democrats and Republicans on the sports issue:

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/29/1107484965/transgender-athletes-trans-rights-gender-transition-poll

[ArabellaScott]

As for 'what is a woman' - this is the question in which politicians demonstrate if they are the naked emperor, or someone who is able to say 'the emperor is naked'.

[ArabellaScott]

Pixiedust1234 that sounds really hard. Particularly from your DH.

[inkjet]

I think things have shifted so much. A woman on the street (not on a SFW rally or any kind of women’s event) just coming out and saying Keir Starmer can’t say what a woman is and unapologetically saying that makes me not want to vote for him. Props to her.

[Abhannmor]

@teawamutu

This is brilliant. I don't know who in Labour is briefing behind the scenes, but they're playing a blinder. Starmer is going to have to make a choice between appearing heartless (to the blue-haired Momentumites) or mindless (to the electorate).

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby

Stop with this drivel about Momentum already.

This is not left / right. Blairites like Cooper , Creasey and Kinnock are TWAW. As are many Tories , Liberals Greens and Plaid Cymru.

[Hepwo]

@GoChasingWaterfalls

I appreciate that this is a massive issue on Mumsnet but I really think we're in a bubble on this one.

Most voters won't have this issue in their top ten.

A YouGov surgery from last year showed that 24% of people paid it no attention at all and 42 % paid little attention:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

What's more, other polls consistently have voters primarily focused on other issues and it will be these that win or lose the election:

"In the latest period, we asked adults what they feel are important issues facing the UK today. The most commonly reported issues were:

the cost of living (93%)

the NHS (84%)

the economy (74%)

climate change and the environment (61%)"

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/wellbeing/bulletins/publicopinionsandsocialtrendsgreatbritain/22februaryto5march2023#important-issues-facing-the-uk

My guess is that Starmer may lose a few % points over this issue, but overall the bigger problems facing the country, coupled with the mess that is the Tory party, will swing it for him. Polls have had Labour consistently in the high 40s low 50s for months now. It's just a question of how big their majority is going to be.

This is common this far out from a general election. It changes rapidly in the weeks and days before hand.

Starmer's hypocritical stance on his own special pension deal will push any wavering conservative voters back firmly into their traditional voting pattern. Unless he's going to revoke that personal cash cow. He's been absolutely silent on it so far despite his speed at promising he will revoke the pension cap reforms for everyone else who are trying to save enough to retire.

The gender pay gap is literally caused by there not being enough women in senior jobs and he wants any woman making it into a senior job to have a far worse pension saving environment as a reward for the extraordinary hard work they have to do.

There's so much inequality about and he's taken a very favorable special instrument as a special deal. He doesn't want senior female workers to have access to the same a good thing which allows them to catch up.

As a recent senior manager and single parent who hasn't been able to save before now because of a mortgage and a family I've supported alone, I am grateful for the conservative government allowing me to sacrifice the majority of my pay into a tax deferral scheme in my 60s. I have to live now on a low salary after pension contributions to catch up, and what this new cap allows me to do is save a big enough lump sum to withdraw for the rest of my life. Taxable when I withdraw it.

He's dead keen to stop me doing that and make sure I can't save enough to retire on.

His lefty credentials are shallow.

[NotHavingIt]

@OhVicIveFallen

I'm so sorry, your family sound batshit. Hope fully your children will grow up and realise how damaging this ideology is. Your husband though? I'd probably get rid tbh. Easier said than done I know!

Yes, it sounds pretty intolerable.

[NotHavingIt]

When Starmer sees how ridiculed Humza is over the issue of Gender self ID, and how little public support he has, he will have to address the issue himself pretty sharpish and declare his own hand - certainly if he wants to capitalise on the possible Scottish votes he requires to win an election.

[SquidwardBound]

There does need to be someone to vote for though. It’s like labour are satisfied to attempt to be elected on the basis of people just wanting not-the-Tories.

There’s no party offering an inspiring vision and a leader you actually believe could pull anything off.

[LittleLegsKeepGoing]

It doesn't matter if Starmer changes his stance now for me. My MP is Labour and is a proud TWAW ally. She votes according to her beliefs and has disobeyed the party whip before now so I have zero faith that she will work in favour of women even if ordered to.

Sadly we live in a Cons/Lab swing seat so that causes other issues for me.

[MissPollysFitDolly]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes, I posted it upthread. The response from the male interviewer, and the mostly men in the comments, is very revealing of how much respect they have for women.

But look at the thread that followed his TWAW comment - https://twitter.com/edcmpbl/status/1638969482717589519 - no support at all.

[SirSamVimesCityWatch]

Insulting women doesn't make us vote the way they want us to.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

It's funny that he's pearl clutching about the "culture war" while tweeting "caveat, trans women are women" as the second tweet.

[ZuttZeVootEeeVo]

Same attitude.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Yes, I posted it upthread. The response from the male interviewer, and the mostly men in the comments, is very revealing of how much respect they have for women.

[ZuttZeVootEeeVo]

The presumably Labour supporters in the comments are saying shes either thick or has her priorities wrong.

Same attitute they had to the brexit voters.

[Helleofabore]

https://twitter.com/edcmpbl/status/1638967017607688207?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

This woman is pretty clear that she won’t vote for someone who cannot define who a woman is.