Labour ‘must fix its trans stance to win the next election’ - party needs to clarify its policies to be closer to the public’s views on the debate

[IwantToRetire]

Labour is trying to position itself as the party of the centre-ground of British politics. It has identified middle-aged, suburban women as a target demographic to win over ahead of the general election.

Labour strategists have studied polling that shows how a gender gap in voting has emerged since 2010, whereby women are on average more likely to vote Labour.

But the polling notes that Labour’s advantage is “specifically among women under 50”, while the Tories lead in women over 50.

It comes as a network of Labour activists and staffers prepares to relaunch itself next month as a think tank that will produce monthly reports on how the party can appeal to its target voters.

The organisation, called Labour Together, aims to come up with a raft of policy recommendations that reposition the party as “socially to the Right and economically to the Left”.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/18/labour-must-fix-trans-stance-win-next-election/

It really shouldn't be too much to ask for the Labour Party to realise that women and children exist and deserve safeguarding.

In fact it shouldn't be too much to ask of any politician.

They must be walking around with their eyes closed if they can't see the harm that this ideology does to vulnerable women and to children. The evidence is there. Women are being harmed by male inmates in prison. Women are being raped on what should be single sex NHS wards. The Cass review is comprehensive in the harms of the kind of social transitioning which has, and still, is taking place in schools.

It really should be a no - brainer. But instead we still have 'left-wing' men calling women Nazi's for having the temerity of pointing these things out.

So sorry what Kier Starmer has said is not enough. No where near. He is not a stupid man. He knows the impact of the misrepresentation of the Equality Act encouraged by a lobby group. He has women in his family.

But the truth is he cares more about appeasing the bigots in his party. The bigots who put men's rights above the safety and dignity of vulnerable women and children.

It may be that people won't vote Tory because of inflation.

I am much less sure what Labour will be able to do about it though. I suspect they might end up being quite disappointing in that area.

The worst inflation is food inflation. That is driven in large part by Brexit impacting on the cost of imported food - the UK imports a lot - and on labour shortages in the areas where the UK does produce food.

Keir Starmer has said "..Britain will not go back into the EU. We will not be joining the single market. We will not be joining a customs union."

The best he can offer with regard to Brexit's effect on food imports is that Labour will try to negotiate a new veterinary agreement for agri-products between the UK and EU - details unspecified and dependent, of course, on the EU's attitude.

So on food inflation in particular, I wouldn't recommend holding one's breath.

It is the labour market apparently, and the economy strengthening with very low unemployment

Inflation will fall it’s a mathematical certainty due to lowering energy prices

This was from radio this am various analysts etc

(Of course policies other than gender come into play when making the impossible choice, but Labour display similar cognitive dissonance and detachment from reality on multiple issues. So do you pick the party that will do awful things because they believe in them; or the one that will do awful things because the polls/lobbyists/activists tell them to and they don't know what's real?)

This is what it comes down to for me. Have never and will probably never vote Tory. I think they're terrible.

But Labour are looking pretty appalling too. Genuinely, what are we supposed to do if all the parties look like they are going to make life even worse?

I'm not sure why you are struggling with that, given that Labour have explicitly said they will make it legal, and the Tories have explicitly said that they won't.

The Equality Act allows the segregation of certain facilities and services by sex, and explicitly allows the exclusion of people with a GRC in some cases. Having a GRC allows someone to be treated as their adopted sex in most cases, but not all.

The problem with the GRR Bill in Scotland, and with what Labour have said that they want to enact here, is that it will become impossible to identify anyone by biological sex. So the EA will still say that some women's facilities can be single-sex, but that will be meaningless because your sex will be what you say it is.

And please don't tell me to wait for the manifesto. I don't need to. Keir Starmer told Pink News that Labour will be introducing self-ID only a few weeks ago.

And please don't tell me to wait for the manifesto. I don't need to. Keir Starmer told Pink News that Labour will be introducing self-ID only a few weeks ago.

Quite. Starmer is on video for christ sake, saying he will introduce self ID. Now if he has done a massive u turn and changed his mind, then let's hear it, explicitly and unequivocally. Then I will think about it, but fudging a position just won't cut it.

I'm sorry but if a man can get a certificate inc a passport, now, to say he is a woman, via an NHS clinic, then i think any sensible person would say that is legal self ID.
the law has doesn't stop anyone calling themselves whatever they like, trans people didn't just appear in the last 15 or so years but now a man can become a woman in law.. under the the "Protector of Womens rights" the Tories but its Labour who we should be afraid off.

The threat is now, loss of rights is happening now! not in October 2024.

Yes i care very much both for me and my dd and i agree with @TheABC and another poster that Labour should not be an automatic shoe in, which is why i will wait for official confirmation either way, Tory and Labour, as i ve repeatedly said before.

I can't change what the present Govt will or wont do, they are a law unto themselves but i can badger my local prospective Lab candidate on her views and challenge them.

ATM there are gapping holes in Labours commitments so far, they, as far as i can tell are still formulating specific policy, as they bloody well should, they have that luxury, use it!

I'm sorry but if a man can get a certificate inc a passport, now, to say he is a woman, via an NHS clinic, then i think any sensible person would say that is legal self ID. the law has doesn't stop anyone calling themselves whatever they like, trans people didn't just appear in the last 15 or so years but now a man can become a woman in law.. under the the "Protector of Womens rights" the Tories but its Labour who we should be afraid off

You mean a GRC? That Labour brought in 2004?

I'm going to judge the Labour party on what they say when it comes to Gender Ideology, and I'll believe them too. It would be foolish to think that all of those who have stood by as Rosie Duffield has been barracked and abused ( from within her own party) will soon change their modus operandi.

They believe in Self Id without the need for a medical diagnosis; they believe that transwomen should be placed in the prison of their choosing; they believe that Trans Women are Women; a good proportion of them have said they don't believe in "sex segregated spaces"; and as far as I'm aware they are still signed up to Stonewall's diversity champion scheme; some of them have signed petitions calling women's groups 'hate groups'; the Labour women's declaration were not permitted a stall at least year's conference; my local MP has point blank refused to meet with her constitunets on this matter and we've been told that she is " not going to change her mind". David Lammy has referred to women as 'dinosaurs'; others have referred to JK Rowling as a 'transphobic' bully and to other women as bigots.

I'd have to be delusional to vote for them; and I won't be; and I won't vote for them again until they regain common sense.

if a man can get a certificate inc a passport, now, to say he is a woman, via an NHS clinic, then i think any sensible person would say that is legal self ID.

No it is not. You clearly have no idea how any of this works. You don't just walk into a clinic and pick up a certificate.

Under the current system (introduced by Labour), to get a GRC (I assume this is what you mean by 'a certificate'; passports are separate) a person needs a diagnosis (or surgery plus more stringent conditions if they do not have a diagnosis). They also need to submit a dossier of evidence to a panel for approval. The panel can and does reject some application. That is not self ID - it is a multi-stage process, involving multiple other people, requiring evidence, that can be turned down.

Self ID - as in the Scottish GRR bill and as promised to Pink News by Starmer - does away with NHS involvement, does away with the panel, does away with evidence requirements, does away with the possibility of the application being rejected. It is based only on a simple declaration by the person. Self ID.

NotHavingIt, I feel very much the same way. As a diehard Tory since 1983 (excl 1997), for the first time ready to embrace voting Left since my Tony Benn-adoring teen period, what am I presented with?
99 reasons to vote against the Tories, but 1 critical reason to refuse to put my X in the Labour (or LD, Green) box...and my local MP is Liz Truss!
I look at Starmer...and listen...one day at the Pink News awards saying Self ID is his heartfelt aim...the next day at Mumsnet Towers saying he's perturbed by teens wishing to transition...one day saying it's cruel and hurtful for Rosie Duffield and others to say only women (biological, observed on the ultrasound and at birth) can have a cervix...the next day saying that gender legislation is not "his priority"...the next day for consecutive years signing off on disallowing gender critical Labour Womens Declaration at Labour conference.
And if what I'm hearing is right, in that Y. Cooper and S. Kinnock have trans identified children, no way is Starmer declaring to them, and thus the party, anything less than devotion to the cause, the trans child must be fully accepted, and on the Labour front bench at very least A. Rayner, E. Thornberry, T. Debonnaire, D. Lammy, L. Nandy are all died in the wool trans activist minded...just how am I meant to have the merest confidence that Starmer isn't himself TRA, or even if he's skeptical, the party from activist base to policy making at the top, isn't institutionally captured? All the while looking both ways at once to Joe and Josy Public, saying whatevers needed to placate both viewpoints out in the country.
Well, it's not possible. And thus when this government deserves putting out of its misery, I cannot vote for the party that would enable this.
The cognitive dissonance is at Eleven.

There will be a huge difference if self-id is legislated in. Once you start to legislate in this stuff, it becomes so fraught to try and get rid of it.

And that might not be all the LP do. I can only imagine that they will want to go forward with outlawing what they call trans-conversion therapy, and what could happen with hate crime legislation and such? There are all kinds of regulatory and legal things that have gone farther under leftist governments in other countries.

Self ID comes in under Starmer, no way is it reversed if Tories win in 2028. This is purely down to the man himself.

The left need to be dislodged from this stuff before gaining power.

There’s a few threads today that reinforce the nightmare-ish outcomes of left gender ideology

The one where a politician calls women actual shit and the Barbie thread.

It’s very troubling where men are happy to go when allowed

The left need to be dislodged from this stuff before gaining power

Unfortunately, I suspect that is correct. I don't think identity politics are inherently left-wing. They are so dependent on rigid sex stereotypes, that you can easily imagine them taking hold under an authoritarian right-wing government. But, as the cards have fallen, they are now firmly associated with the Left.

Labour has shown no real concern or alarm at what has happened in Scotland, or its part in passing the GRR Bill. When they talk about gender politics, they simply do not acknowledge women's rights or concerns. Why would anyone expect this to change, if they gain power? They are very clear about their intentions.

I know exactly how it works but i can't help it that you do not know the difference between a Clinic and a Helpdesk.

The point here is the man can easily convince the clinic that he should be a she and he will get the cert & the Tories have set up many more of these.

Here is the actually data:

Data on Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) applications from the Tribunals Statistics Quarterly shows that, in the financial year 2020 to 2021

95.6% of all decisions made on Gender Recognition Certificate applications led to a full or interim certificate being awarded
1.8% of all decisions led to an application being refused

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificate-applications-and-outcomes/gender-recognition-certificate-applications-and-outcomes

I don't know about you but that looks like Self ID to me.

Its a shame you and others use this very serious issue to bash Labour (without even being able to wait to see what their actually policy is) whilst totally ignoring the mess we see now is under a Tory administration.

Im not sure the proves what you think it does. The GRA act which allows people to obtain a GRC was passed in 2004, by a Labour Government. The process hasn't changed since then.

The % of those granted has always been high, ever since 2005 when there was a 95.7% approval rate.

However it is only small numbers of people who apply for and are granted a GRC. There are failings in the current GRC process, but there has to be a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and applications are considered by a panel. Self ID is exactly what it's says it is.

That's fantasy politics.

The polls now are showing quite clearly that Labour do NOT need to move on self-ID before gaining power. Whether you or I like it, they will almost certainly form our next government, whatever their views on self-ID.

So, to be perfectly realistic, women who care about women’s rights need to be absolutely rigorous about making sure that our message is a) clear b) widely spread and c) politically acceptable to the left by which I mean absolutely no potential links to the far right which will make it impossible for Starmer to turn the reluctant ship of the left round on this issue.

So yes, that means running a mile from anything that could possibly be painted as association with the far right (which you would hope we would be doing anyway), and shouting from the bloody rooftops our strong aversion to the far right at all times.

The more the far right try to forced-team with us for their own nefarious purposes, the more loudly and clearly we need to push back.

We have zero hope of bringing Labour along with us, before or after they gain power, if we are not absolutely rigorous about how we present our message and who we allow to speak for us.

Pesky women. Always asking for thing in the wrong way, or the wrong tone, or at inconvenient times.

The polls can shift and already are in some. We’ll see.

Anyway I’m clear what I have issue with as are other women on here. If you feel your message isn’t right adapt.

Yep. It doesn’t wash though. Too many make good points on here clearly.

We have zero hope of bringing Labour along with us, before or after they gain power, if we are not absolutely rigorous about how we present our message and who we allow to speak for us.

Many left leaning women, including those in the Labour Party have tried to bring Labour along with them, by being kind, measured in tone etc.

You know what Labour did? Ignored them, and in some cases banned them from being members.

Re 'who we allow to speak for us', what gives anyone the right to decide who gets to speak? Women with right leaning politics are every bit as impacted by this as women on the left, and they also deserve to have their voices heard. (P S we can't actually prevent anyone from speaking up)

Ah I see we’re doing the old feminism wrong again

Labour couldn’t stomach life long members like Joan smith or Karen ingla smith having TW are not women views. They need literally no reason or excuse to brand women who don’t agree with them that TW are women as right wing