Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour ‘must fix its trans stance to win the next election’ - party needs to clarify its policies to be closer to the public’s views on the debate

357 replies

IwantToRetire · 20/03/2023 00:37

Labour is trying to position itself as the party of the centre-ground of British politics. It has identified middle-aged, suburban women as a target demographic to win over ahead of the general election.

Labour strategists have studied polling that shows how a gender gap in voting has emerged since 2010, whereby women are on average more likely to vote Labour.

But the polling notes that Labour’s advantage is “specifically among women under 50”, while the Tories lead in women over 50.

It comes as a network of Labour activists and staffers prepares to relaunch itself next month as a think tank that will produce monthly reports on how the party can appeal to its target voters.

The organisation, called Labour Together, aims to come up with a raft of policy recommendations that reposition the party as “socially to the Right and economically to the Left”.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/18/labour-must-fix-trans-stance-win-next-election/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 13:01

Thanks, @RedToothBrush - really interesting.

LittleFingerStrength · 23/03/2023 13:13

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2023 12:37

I'm currently watching Simon Schama's History of Now on iPlayer. And he's just popped up with a quote by Václav Havel from The Power of the Powerless: Citizens Against the State in Central-Eastern Europe

The quote he uses is:
Because the regime is captive to its own lies, it must falsify everything. It falsifies the past. It falsifies the present, and it falsifies the future. It falsifies statistics. It pretends not to possess an omnipotent and unprincipled police apparatus. It pretends to respect human rights. It pretends to persecute no one. It pretends to fear nothing. It pretends to pretend nothing.

And it comes from a longer passage about the 'post-totalitarianism':

The post-totalitarian system touches people at every step, but it does so with its ideological gloves on. This is why life in the system is so thoroughly permeated with hypocrisy and lies: government by bureaucracy is called popular government; the working class is enslaved in the name of the working class; the complete degradation of the individual is presented as his or her ultimate liberation; depriving people of information is called making it available; the use of power to manipulate is called the public control of power, and the arbitrary abuse of power is called observing the legal code; the repression of culture is called its development; the expansion of imperial influence is presented as support for the oppressed; the lack of free expression becomes the highest form of freedom; farcical elections become the highest form of democracy; banning independent thought becomes the most scientific of world views; military occupation becomes fraternal assistance. Because the regime is captive to its own lies, it must falsify everything. It falsifies the past. It falsifies the present, and it falsifies the future. It falsifies statistics. It pretends not to possess an omnipotent and unprincipled police apparatus. It pretends to respect human rights. It pretends to persecute no one. It pretends to fear nothing. It pretends to pretend nothing.

There is much in this essay relevant to the current debate that's ongoing over women's right and the clash with trans rights.

Post-totalitarian is essentially what Havel describes as dictatorial rule within a system but being less obvious and less about a traditional dictator figure which we understand and recognise as dictatorship. Instead it's embedded in a more covert / hidden way that makes it harder for the population to immediately identify but is no less hard for the population to resist because it's embedded into the bureaucracy of the system.

What's fascinating about this essay is how it talks about the bureaucracy of the system being how it exerts the power of conformity and stops dissent. In other words it makes it easier to control people because they have no choice.

For example: if you don't use pronouns you become 'marked'. If you become marked you have to demonstrate your loyalty. If you don't demonstrate your loyalty you aren't selected. If you don't repeat the right phrases you are heretic and further you don't belong in the party etc etc. We see it playing out with cancel culture generally but it's particularly interesting in the context of political parties themselves.

Schama's observation in the programme (episode one on truth and democracy) the ongoing relevance of this phenomena in a post truth world is very much spot on.

Trump did it. But we are also definitely seeing examples on the left.

This is the point. It comes from neither left nor right. It is a authoritarian v liberal thing.

We need to remember that the political spectrum is made up of four areas, not the two that the politicians in this country want to reduce matters to because it allows the manipulative narrative of 'you are either with us or against us'.

In this sense the liberal left and right SHOULD be united on this and that's a GOOD thing. You would also expect to see the illiberal authoritarian left pitted against the right - from the far right to the liberal right because that's the normal left v right thing too. The thing is that the illiberal left is terrified of the unity of the liberal left and right so the only tool in the box they have is to try and tar the liberal left.

Cancel culture and political parties barring women / making it difficult to raise concerns from within their system is very much in line with the premise of the essay.

If you want to read more on this
https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-vaclav-havel-2011-12-23

I would firmly argue that Starmer is running a risk on this - if people can see through what's happening and see that there is still structural dictatorship and authoritarian bureaucrat control over behaviour in political parties and key social institutions which political parties have significant control over (eg unions and charities in the case of Labour). And I do think people, many of whom are leftist women who have actively been shut down and excluded from speaking truth to power, are seeing this.

This opens the door to the right - which includes the authoritarian right - because of the pushing of the 'either with us or against us' narrative which is done by the illiberal left itself AND the right (as a whole) for its own agenda.

The problem is authoritarianism. But authoritarianism exists on BOTH the left and right.

The 'nazi facist' jibe coming from the illiberal left, needs to be seen in this context. It's a bit like the Stalinists shouting at Nazis and complaining about how appalling the other is. Neither is good. We shouldn't aspire to be either in a liberal democracy. If we want to use WWII era analogies we should be more like Atlee and Churchill arm in arm against this bullshit.

I would encourage people to read Havel's essay mentioned above and the points and principles he makes as it ties in with the point I've been making on MN for some time about our loss of liberalism (I don't give a flying fuck if you are from the right or left or centre on this) and how power is moving away from grass roots towards a top down approach in the UK. It's not restricted to this particular issue of women's rights but it certainly isn't 'a minor fringe issue' either. It's about the very dynamic of control without participation and consent within party politics. And that's not ok.

Labour are not alone in this. The SNP is currently imploding because the bureaucratic fabric that had central control of the party has suddenly just collapsed and more voices are being heard (still a long way to run on that). Meanwhile the Lads federal system allows the same thing by the use of small cliques which hold control of various branches of the party (the number of people actually involved is small with some of these people in multi cliques). The Conservatives do it by other more traditional means - who gives the biggest donations and was mates with you at school for example.

It's all very depressing.

Thank you.

We all think well and think badly at times, it's part of the human condition.

I am fed up of totalitarian individuals and groups with their nose in the air, full of themselves and their right think, group think, irrational luxury beliefs nobody can refuse to also think.

I have noticed also that as 'thinking' has reduced people replaced it with 'feeling'.

Where once we would say 'I think I bought/sourced this item from x shop' I hear people say 'I want to say I bought this item from x shop' or 'I feel this item was bough from x shop' or 'I believe I bough this item from x shop'.

It seems to me as independent thinking reduced so did discussing your thoughts in everyday language.

I am the worst linguist going, I have poor social skills 😆 and I am not fashionable, I don't get where this has come from, my daughter said it was in school 'be kind' - not to yourself only these special people - social citizen classes at school.

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2023 13:21

I have noticed also that as 'thinking' has reduced people replaced it with 'feeling'.

I'd rephrase that as thinking replaced by belief. Liberal societies are defined by the encouragement of the pursuit of furthering our understanding by the 'search for the truth' via science / critical thought.

Authoritarian societies encourage belief and emotion over evidence as a means of control to prevent the revealing of truth.

'Truth seeking' is always the thing that authoritarians fear the most. There isn't necessarily 'a truth' to be found - the thing they dislike is the pursuit of it because that involves asking questions about what we know and that can threaten power structures.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 23/03/2023 13:26

SallyLockheart · 23/03/2023 10:57

more back pedalling from Starmer - reported yesterday in the daily express. Not sure how it will go down with the faithful in this party, but until he sorts out his definition of women, its still fairly meaningless. But I think he's starting to read the room that the general public aren't behind self id.

Keir Starmer says Labour has a 'very clear position' on how to balance the rights of women | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

I'd like to know what rights Starmer thinks should be balanced. The right of women to have single-sex provisions against the right of any male who claims trans identity to claim the privilege of overriding that right? It will be nothing more than the expectation that women will have to lose actual rights because their kids have demanded something and I'm not stupid enough to fall for it.

I say to Labour: drop the ideology completely and then come and talk to me, at which point I'll laugh tell them I wasn't found under a blueberry bush, their policy will always be whatever daft fad their kids and SPADs get into next and the only way to fix that is clear out every MP, member etc, ban them from rejoining and start again with a completely different bunch of people - sensible ones this time.

LittleFingerStrength · 23/03/2023 14:24

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2023 13:21

I have noticed also that as 'thinking' has reduced people replaced it with 'feeling'.

I'd rephrase that as thinking replaced by belief. Liberal societies are defined by the encouragement of the pursuit of furthering our understanding by the 'search for the truth' via science / critical thought.

Authoritarian societies encourage belief and emotion over evidence as a means of control to prevent the revealing of truth.

'Truth seeking' is always the thing that authoritarians fear the most. There isn't necessarily 'a truth' to be found - the thing they dislike is the pursuit of it because that involves asking questions about what we know and that can threaten power structures.

My understanding of the Truth timeline is Socrates (which I understand is a firm of teaching, though may be more Plato style if we are going for truth) to Jesus who was named Truth to post enlightenment Truth and we are now in post truth?

ScrollingLeaves · 23/03/2023 15:02

They need to give the Labour Women’s Declaration a voice, allow them to have a stand at the party conference, and apologise to Rosie Duffield.

And they need to apologise for Russell-Moyle.

David Lammy needs to apologise for his Dinosaur accusation.

Starmer needs to apologise for saying “You can’t say only women have a cervix”

ScrollingLeaves · 23/03/2023 19:34

BorisisaLune
Meanwhile, Eurozone inflation is 8.5% and falling, in the US its 6%.

So more mismanagement of the economy.

Brexit most probably, unfortunately.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/03/2023 20:12

BorisisaLune · Yesterday 14:59
I'm sorry but if a man can get a certificate inc a passport, now, to say he is a woman, via an NHS clinic, then i think any sensible person would say that is legal self ID.
the law has doesn't stop anyone calling themselves whatever they like, trans people didn't just appear in the last 15 or so years but now a man can become a woman in law.. under the the "Protector of Womens rights" the Tories but its Labour who we should be afraid off.

In spite of what you say seeming true in some ways , and Stonewall et Al pushing that line, getting a GRC definitely makes a difference. It makes the difficulties even worse.

You cannot just get a certificate at the moment without a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, two years living in your new gender, an intention that this is intended for life, and some sort of protection for a spouse I think and there may be more conditions.

Why does a GRC make it worse?
Lady Haldane’s recent judgement in Scotland says a person actually is in law the sex the Gender Recognition
Certificate says they are.

Therefore the ‘sex’ based exceptions in the Equality Act, which allow for discrimination against the opposite sex in certain circumstances, would not be allowed to discriminate against a person (who in reality is the opposite sex) so long as they have a GRC contradicting their biological sex.

Lady Haldane said the Equality Act would have mentioned that sex was biological if it had meant that. ( This could be challenged but someone needs to bring an appeal and that needs another £150,000, more? And months of someone’s life. )

The reason this Government has blocked Scotland’s GRR is that it would make chaos. For example girls schools would have to take self-ID transgirls/biological boys over 16. JK Rowling’s Breira’s Place would be illegal. No women’s sex based spaces would be allowed because a transwoman with a GRC could bring a discrimination lawsuit.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mps-to-debate-gender-petition-backed-by-jk-rowling-qh0h0bctk
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4534821c-bf89-11ed-b52d-512231a0c9aa?shareToken=a2be6368ec3ec1a7a1e413545f54b9d9

NB Hence the petition to make clear that sex in the Equality Act is biological sex, not sex as modified by a GRC.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4758082-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-3

To write to your MP
https://sex-matters.org/take-action/write-to-your-mp-about-the-petition/

Petition to Update the Equality Act / Thread 3 | Mumsnet

Mumsnet makes parents' lives easier by pooling knowledge, advice and support on everything from conception to childbirth, from babies to teenagers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4758082-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-3

DemiColon · 24/03/2023 00:57

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2023 13:21

I have noticed also that as 'thinking' has reduced people replaced it with 'feeling'.

I'd rephrase that as thinking replaced by belief. Liberal societies are defined by the encouragement of the pursuit of furthering our understanding by the 'search for the truth' via science / critical thought.

Authoritarian societies encourage belief and emotion over evidence as a means of control to prevent the revealing of truth.

'Truth seeking' is always the thing that authoritarians fear the most. There isn't necessarily 'a truth' to be found - the thing they dislike is the pursuit of it because that involves asking questions about what we know and that can threaten power structures.

I think this is also why we've seen the whole, weird, anti-statue type movement. Which includes other things like changing street names and so on.

It's not really because it is "honouring bad people." It's because it risks making people realize that our current heroes and gods and principles may also be misguided or wrong. After all, if people in the past were wrongheaded, maybe we should also question our own ideas? It's all about mental pacification.

ScrollingLeaves · 24/03/2023 08:05

DemiColon · Today 00:57
I think this is also why we've seen the whole, weird, anti-statue type movement. Which includes other things like changing street names and so on.

It's not really because it is "honouring bad people." It's because it risks making people realize that our current heroes and gods and principles may also be misguided or wrong. After all, if people in the past were wrongheaded, maybe we should also question our own ideas? It's all about mental pacification.

I think the very last thing on people’s minds is that they themselves may be misguided and wrong about something. They are certain they are different and good.

They do not entertain the idea that one day people of the future may well look back on some aspect of their present actions with shock and abhorrence.

Someone here once told me the name for this phenomenon which their history lecturer had told them, but unfortunately I don’t remember it.

Re: Labour
See the ridiculous, ill-informed, and fudging non-answer from Ellie Reeves to a poster who wrote to her, as their MP, about the Equality Act petition and proposed debate.
It is a more recent one on this thread,
100,000 signatures on the Equality Act - What next

BenCoopersSupportWren · 24/03/2023 08:15

I’ve skipped from the first hundred posts to the end of the thread so sorry if anyone more articulate has already pointed this out, but just because someone states they can’t/can no longer vote Labour because of their wilful obtuse ignorance over the definition of a woman (and all the impacts on women’s rights that flow from that), it doesn’t automatically follow they’re going to vote Tory. I could never vote for the latter because of their ideology that to be poor or disabled is a moral failing, along with many other reasons. But neither can I vote for any of the left-leaning parties who won’t even acknowledge that I, as a woman, am more than simply a dickless man, a support human not worthy of full rights distinct from men in today’s society. I am politically homeless and left with no alternative but to spoil my ballot paper. And that’s no failing on my part; it’s the fault of the mainstream parties who have turned away from material reality to indulge the magical thinking of a tiny minority.

SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey · 24/03/2023 08:30

... just because someone states they can’t/can no longer vote Labour because of their wilful obtuse ignorance over the definition of a woman (and all the impacts on women’s rights that flow from that), it doesn’t automatically follow they’re going to vote Tory.

Absolutely. I'm in Scotland (Glasgow), and my constituency and many of the others around are SNP/Labour "swing seats". Almost every one was also a safe seat for Labour for about a century, ending in the SNP winning the seat in 2015 (AFTER Scotland voted against independence) and holding it ever since.

Every GE, the seat where I live and vote could've easily swung back - but it didn't in 2017 or 2019 because Labour did not stand a serious/competent candidate. (And, I think it's important to note, these people who no one cared to vote for as an MP were recycled and no one cared to vote for them as a constituency MSP, but they got in on the list vote because Labour did so badly overall in Glasgow, which was once its natural support core).

So, what will change so that Glaswegians/Scots will vote Labour in the next UK election? I'm of course not going to vote Con; I'm still devestated about Brexit. But the idea that Labour deserves my vote is absolutely laughable.

Kucinghitam · 24/03/2023 08:41

BenCoopersSupportWren · 24/03/2023 08:15

I’ve skipped from the first hundred posts to the end of the thread so sorry if anyone more articulate has already pointed this out, but just because someone states they can’t/can no longer vote Labour because of their wilful obtuse ignorance over the definition of a woman (and all the impacts on women’s rights that flow from that), it doesn’t automatically follow they’re going to vote Tory. I could never vote for the latter because of their ideology that to be poor or disabled is a moral failing, along with many other reasons. But neither can I vote for any of the left-leaning parties who won’t even acknowledge that I, as a woman, am more than simply a dickless man, a support human not worthy of full rights distinct from men in today’s society. I am politically homeless and left with no alternative but to spoil my ballot paper. And that’s no failing on my part; it’s the fault of the mainstream parties who have turned away from material reality to indulge the magical thinking of a tiny minority.

Exactly. But the scolders either refuse to see this (a sort of "you're either with us or against us" mentality?) or simply expand the scolding to insist that one must cast a vote (with the addition of "and it must be for Labour, otherwise see above").

7Worfs · 24/03/2023 08:50

I wonder why more centrist and right-leaning people are never so patronising as to hector people about their voting choices and insisting they know better what’s best for us. 🤔

nilsmousehammer · 24/03/2023 08:57

Authoritarian societies encourage belief and emotion over evidence as a means of control to prevent the revealing of truth.

And those with personality disorders and dysfunctional relationship skills are often noted by therapists to believe that reality is created by how they feel instead of objective facts.

And that this is often demonstrated in the apparent absolute incoherence of what they say - a person may deny knowing something or ever having been told it, although others have informed them in very small words in writing trying to get it over to them, because they did not agree with it .

An argument with someone not doing as they want, is not over until the other person is compliant with no regard whatsoever for the other person's needs, feelings, situation, that what they are asking is impossible and harmful for the other.

And the fact that yesterday they said this, and today they said that, and to a rational, objective listener they obviously cannot both be true which invalidates what they say? To the speaker, the objective content is irrelevant, both statements served their genuine feelings at the time so both are 'true'. The listener needs to serve their feelings, not expect to respond to facts.

The relationships board constantly supports people to navigate interaction with this kind of warped thinking on an individual basis. It may need to support society to navigate on an entire political lobby basis.

mollycoddle77 · 31/03/2023 13:10

I have really enjoyed reading this thread, and was sad to get to the end! Thought I would share this tweet from the Labour Party Twitter account today twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1641689281617088512?s=20

They basically say:

Labour will:
Introduce tougher sentences for LGBT+ hate crime
Ban conversion therapy in all forms
Modernise the outdated Gender Recognition Act

Not sounding promising is it? Don't know how Keir Starmer could have anything dramatically different to say than this. No special announcement or policy change soon it seems...

nilsmousehammer · 31/03/2023 14:16

Reading the comments: they are getting it in the neck from activists shouting about their transphobia as much as from women refusing to embrace misogyny and inequality for happier penises in our time.

No way to win.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/03/2023 21:24

I got on to this Twitter thread about Kier Starmer and schools.

Trans activists here are angry with Kier for saying parents want to be informed and they are claiming this betrays the child into an abusers’ hands.

Some comments mention that a large number of homeless are LGBT who were thrown out of home when their parents found out.

And there are claims that many children will be abused at home.

Does anyone have any hard statistics relating to these claims?

Dominic Penna on Twitter: "Keir Starmer says schools "need and want guidance" on trans issues: "I think it's very concerning to see that different schools are doing different things. "And I think parents would want to know what's going on. I think that's understandable. And I say that as a parent myself."

twitter.com/DominicPenna/status/1641405403559870464

LittleFingerStrength · 31/03/2023 21:44

I don't doubt some are thrown out of their homes.

A) some are abuse victims.

B) adult children making narcissistic pronoun demands and gaslighting parents may become too much, if they are 25 and the parents had them at 35 the parents will be 60, they may have heart issues and to save their health they may have to send the narc adult children out of the house to fend for themselves.

Under 18s are subject to court orders if required.

nilsmousehammer · 31/03/2023 21:44

There is an awful lot of projection going on I suspect.

Separating kids from parental relationships and getting them to detach from anyone who does not unconditionally enable them in whatever they currently wish and put their trust instead in glittery adults on the internet is another major safeguarding issue that is connected. There is the paranoia that even an adult potentially saying no is an abusive adult who is a danger. As you can see through a quick surf on FWR and the other boards on MN parents would do anything for their children, are desperate to help and keep them safe - they just may not see the best interests and safety for their child in unconditional obedience to the political lobby.

TheBiologyStupid · 01/04/2023 01:06

Indeed. And there are plenty of examples of offspring who have later been profoundly grateful that their parents stuck with reality and didn't cave in.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/04/2023 05:45

Yes, and the accusation using the woolly umbrella term ‘LGBT’ to describe the children who have these abusive parents, also means, if there is any truth in it, that some parents are homophobic - so a further example that these children may be potentially gay and vulnerable to thinking themselves ‘trans’ as a way out.

And the numbers of ‘LGBT’ homeless children given as an example may, when they say they are trans, may not be homeless because they are trans, but trans in the first place because of former abuse and homeless because of running away.

If a child has suffered abuse at home, it still would not be up to the school to affirm them as trans. The school ought to get them help from SS and psychological help.

nilsmousehammer · 01/04/2023 08:00

Good points.

As with the conversion therapy campaign, it borrows heavily from LGB history to achieve a TQ+ political wanted ground.

And as the schools report discusses in detail, and as you say: the safeguarding aspects are not fully linked and investigated, and those needs properly met. Everything disappears under the useful label of 'gender' which is then used to politically leverage inconvenient adults out of the way of being allowed to say 'no'.

Blort · 01/04/2023 21:14

Keir Starmer has been to Kent today and didnt let Rosie Duffield know he was going to her patch (her turf?! Ha..)

Not a great sign.

https://twitter.com/RosieDuffield1/status/1642170493494079488?t=ofOQpYuK6vlF7BAZ0JNqgQ&s=19

https://twitter.com/RosieDuffield1/status/1642170493494079488?s=19&t=ofOQpYuK6vlF7BAZ0JNqgQ

Sistanotcista · 03/04/2023 15:38

@Blort - "her turf" - very witty!