And single women? Or should assisted conception only be for infertile women in heterosexual relationships?
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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions
TooBigForMyBoots ·
17/03/2023 23:06
ÉireannachÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ · 17/03/2023 21:07
How are you missing the point? Lesbians accessing the same rights as heterosexual women is based on the principle of equality. You then cannot argue that men can not or should not have equality to lesbain and hetero women. Because that's not equal, is it?
TooBigForMyBoots · 17/03/2023 16:04
This post is very much insinuating that the consequence of lesbians using assisted fertilisation will be surrogacy and detrimental to women.
Surrogacy is not the fault or a consequence of lesbian mothers. Women's rights are lesbian rights and should be equal.
TinselAngel · 15/03/2023 20:56
God this is getting tedious. That's not what I said. I said that if you argue for anybody having a "right" to children, (eg by saying lesbians have a right to IVF because it's the only way they can conceive and therefore is necessary for "equality") then you need to think through the consequences of your argument. In particular, to be consistent you'd have to argue gay men also have a right to children which will involve increased use of surrogates. You then have to wonder where the surrogates will come from to fulfil that right and of the detrimental effect this would be likely to have on women.
TooBigForMyBoots · 15/03/2023 20:09
I personally think that assisted conception should be available to women. Including single women and lesbians.
I ask because of some posts I've seen recently objecting to it. The reason given was that if lesbians can access help to conceive it would pave the way for more gay men to use surrogates.
OP posts:
TooBigForMyBoots ·
17/03/2023 23:20
ÉireannachÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ · 17/03/2023 21:47
Two women in a lesbian couple cannot gestate a baby without a man.
I don't know how to articulate it any clearer but I suspect I'm chatting with a lesbian who is unable to see my very basic clear point because of her own personal bias.
I don't think anyone should get ivf, regardless of sexuality. I believe people supporting lesbians having access to fertility treatment in the same way a hetero woman is, are hypocrites for not supporting gay or single men in their pursuit for their own "biological child".
SquidwardBound · 17/03/2023 21:35
Whereas biologically no man ever is gestating a child. Two men need to use a woman to not just conceive but to gestate a baby. That’s an entirely different prospect.
OP posts:
sillysmiles ·
17/03/2023 23:21
Honeyroar · 15/03/2023 20:27
I agree. IVF shouldn’t be NHS funded full stop. The NHS can’t afford it.
BordoisAgain · 15/03/2023 19:42
Available - yes
Funded by NHS - no (that goes for everyone)
Billi80 ·
17/03/2023 23:35
Foreversearch · 15/03/2023 20:06
Have you never heard of turkey basters?
Ladyofthesea · 15/03/2023 19:53
If it wouldn't be available to lesbians then you want to force them have sex with a man against their will just to get pregnant? To me that feels like a form of legalized rape....
Cattenberg ·
18/03/2023 00:25
EndlessTea · 17/03/2023 22:28
I'm not entirely sure how this post even evolving into being more about surrogacy than IVF
It’s about the concept of “equal fertility rights”.
It’s a phrase that sounds “yeah right on!” but contains a lot of things people disagree with.
For example commercialisation of human gametes.
There was an article claiming that lesbians really push to have ‘equal IVF to heterosexuals’ because it’s unfair that apparently it ‘costs lesbians too much money’ to learn they are infertile and are therefore entitled to IVF on the NHS- money that heterosexuals don’t need to fork out during their two years of unprotected sex.
There’s a lie in that. Lesbians don’t need to buy male gametes. They can come to an agreement with a man and get them for free. Just like heterosexual women, they can ‘equally’ go through a process of meeting, getting to know and possibly being disappointed by a series of men, until they find the one to father their children. Perhaps they don’t even find the man at all, just like heterosexual women. Once they are fortunate to have found the right man, they can do DIY artificial insemination.
Pretending that this is not an option for lesbians and that they must buy their sperm on the open market and it runs into tens of thousands of pounds, is a way of priming people to accept the commercialisation of gametes as ‘the only way’ to achieve “equal fertility rights” and if people accept that, then it is not a stretch to include the commercialisation of pregnancy under “equal fertility rights” and the commercialisation of children too.
Cattenberg ·
18/03/2023 00:48
EndlessTea · 17/03/2023 08:09
That’s why this thread is misleading. This isn’t about sexual orientation, it’s about whether women without a male partner (or ‘known donor’) should be entitled to impregnation by anonymous State-sourced fathers.
Anonymous gamete ‘donation’, including in cases of infertility, is an ethical minefield which, I believe, weights the wishes of parents over the rights of the child unfairly. There are other issues too around potential coercion and poor quality of ‘donors’, which deserves its own thread, but I don’t think that is necessarily a feminist issue, more a children’s rights issue, so this forum might not be the right place.
YetAnotherSpartacus · 17/03/2023 07:57
What about the rights of the baby to know their genetic heritage? To know if they are predisposed to certain cancers? To not have to worry about incest in future relationships? If you think these things don’t matter, you might want to ponder on the success of companies offering DNA analysis. But somehow the rights of babies don’t seem to be considered.
I quite agree with you. But this is a general issue with donor sperm and is not affected by the sexual orientation of the women being inseminated.
ÉireannachÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ ·
18/03/2023 06:19
TooBigForMyBoots · 17/03/2023 23:06
Lesbians and heterosexual women are women. Equality happens when their rights are the same.
Gay men and heterosexual sexual men are men. Equality happens when their rights are the same.
Women and men have biological differences.
ÉireannachÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ · 17/03/2023 21:07
How are you missing the point? Lesbians accessing the same rights as heterosexual women is based on the principle of equality. You then cannot argue that men can not or should not have equality to lesbain and hetero women. Because that's not equal, is it?
TooBigForMyBoots · 17/03/2023 16:04
This post is very much insinuating that the consequence of lesbians using assisted fertilisation will be surrogacy and detrimental to women.
Surrogacy is not the fault or a consequence of lesbian mothers. Women's rights are lesbian rights and should be equal.
TinselAngel · 15/03/2023 20:56
God this is getting tedious. That's not what I said. I said that if you argue for anybody having a "right" to children, (eg by saying lesbians have a right to IVF because it's the only way they can conceive and therefore is necessary for "equality") then you need to think through the consequences of your argument. In particular, to be consistent you'd have to argue gay men also have a right to children which will involve increased use of surrogates. You then have to wonder where the surrogates will come from to fulfil that right and of the detrimental effect this would be likely to have on women.
TooBigForMyBoots · 15/03/2023 20:09
I personally think that assisted conception should be available to women. Including single women and lesbians.
I ask because of some posts I've seen recently objecting to it. The reason given was that if lesbians can access help to conceive it would pave the way for more gay men to use surrogates.
ÉireannachÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ ·
18/03/2023 06:42
YetAnotherSpartacus · 17/03/2023 23:36
I don't know how to articulate it any clearer but I suspect I'm chatting with a lesbian who is unable to see my very basic clear point because of her own personal bias.
Heterosexual women have ovaries of objectivity. Lesbian women have bias.
ÉireannachÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ ·
18/03/2023 06:50
TooBigForMyBoots · 17/03/2023 23:20
Two women in a lesbian couple cannot gestate a baby without a man.
That is incorrect. Women (including lesbians) can gestate a baby. Sperm is required to fertilise the egg but a woman's body is needed to gestate a pregnancy.
Voluntary sperm donation, be it for heterosexual women in a relationship with an infertile man or lesbians is completely different to surrogacy. Being aware of the difference is recognition of biology.
ÉireannachÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ · 17/03/2023 21:47
Two women in a lesbian couple cannot gestate a baby without a man.
I don't know how to articulate it any clearer but I suspect I'm chatting with a lesbian who is unable to see my very basic clear point because of her own personal bias.
I don't think anyone should get ivf, regardless of sexuality. I believe people supporting lesbians having access to fertility treatment in the same way a hetero woman is, are hypocrites for not supporting gay or single men in their pursuit for their own "biological child".
SquidwardBound · 17/03/2023 21:35
Whereas biologically no man ever is gestating a child. Two men need to use a woman to not just conceive but to gestate a baby. That’s an entirely different prospect.
SapphosRock ·
18/03/2023 07:53
Dyslexicwonder · 18/03/2023 06:59
By the way, one of my friends had IVF as a single woman, several years before I did. She had to check something with her GP first and the GP said, “why are you doing this? Go and have a one night stand or something.” We were both shocked he actually said that, but given that IVF isn’t free of health risks either, he may have had a point.
I am very confused by this. My understanding is that IUI is straightforward, safe and available on the NHS. As others have said other options are a known donor or purchase of donor sperm. For a lesbian couple or a single women who wishes to have their own child surely this would be the first step rather than either a ONS or IVF ?
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