Should IVF be available to lesbians?

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And single women? Or should assisted conception only be for infertile women in heterosexual relationships?

[Sweetues]

Yes

[beastlyslumber]

@EndlessTea

I think the danger is in the language used around ‘rights’.

’Equal fertility rights’ does suggest that it is the job of the NHS to ‘level that playing field’.

And once you are down that road, of course men have the ‘right’ to have children via surrogate mothers.

I agree with this. Not sure why you are getting such a hard time on this thread!

[SquidwardBound]

I simply don’t think the concept of ‘fertility rights’ is helpful. Especially as it becomes ever more divorced from biological capacity.

[Signalbox]

@EndlessTea

That’s why this thread is misleading. This isn’t about sexual orientation, it’s about whether women without a male partner (or ‘known donor’) should be entitled to impregnation by anonymous State-sourced fathers.

Anonymous gamete ‘donation’, including in cases of infertility, is an ethical minefield which, I believe, weights the wishes of parents over the rights of the child unfairly. There are other issues too around potential coercion and poor quality of ‘donors’, which deserves its own thread, but I don’t think that is necessarily a feminist issue, more a children’s rights issue, so this forum might not be the right place.

I’m sorry but earlier in the thread didn’t you argue that a heterosexual couple where the male was completely unable to supply sperm should be entitled to IVF and that the treatment for him was to use donor sperm?

[EndlessTea]

I think we need to be very careful about what we are agreeing to, when we say we agree to vaguely expressed rights. We need to ask what is included under that banner? Is it something I oppose, like surrogacy, for example?

It wasn’t so long ago, that most feminists or gender critical people would start every sentence by saying “I believe in trans rights and xyz…”. But what were they saying they believe in? What are trans rights?

It’s the same, saying ‘I believe in equal fertility rights’… what are you agreeing to there? Even ‘equal rights to parenthood’.. recently there was a man who identifies as a woman on a thread claiming he has the right to be called mother or mum by his adoptive child.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

I’m sorry but earlier in the thread didn’t you argue that a heterosexual couple where the male was completely unable to supply sperm should be entitled to IVF and that the treatment for him was to use donor sperm?

I think there has been so much dancing around, sealioning and being obscure while accusing others of the same that it has become hard to tell!

[EndlessTea]

@Signalbox

I’m sorry but earlier in the thread didn’t you argue that a heterosexual couple where the male was completely unable to supply sperm should be entitled to IVF and that the treatment for him was to use donor sperm?

I wouldn’t say that. I don’t believe people are entitled to IVF or donor gametes.

I was making the point that if it is a male fertility issue which leads to the treatment, then it is a treatment for male infertility, not female infertility, even though the medical procedure takes place in the woman’s body.

[Signalbox]

@EndlessTea

I wouldn’t say that. I don’t believe people are entitled to IVF or donor gametes.

I was making the point that if it is a male fertility issue which leads to the treatment, then it is a treatment for male infertility, not female infertility, even though the medical procedure takes place in the woman’s body.

Right sorry I misunderstood your argument (again). I made an assumption that your argument meant you were in favour of that treatment in heterosexual couples.

[EndlessTea]

sorry I misunderstood your argument

No worries Signalbox. Its understandable that you did.

Not sure why you are getting such a hard time on this thread!

Thanks Beastly. I can see why I am though.

This discussion is taboo, so the people who believe in the ‘right’ to be a parent / the ‘right’ to have a child / the ‘right’ to State provided gametes, had assumed everyone was on board with it and are now shocked and quite offended to discover that not everyone is on board. The people who are not on board with it are surprised to see that it was assumed they were on board with it, and are worried where these so-called ‘equal fertility rights’ will lead, and what the consequences will be for society- particularly women and children’s rights.

It is an important discussion, I believe this taboo needs breaking, so I accept the hard time I am getting for it. I’d much rather I wasn’t. But I have been called transphobic and racist for hitting taboos on the nose before, for the sake of what I consider a needed reality check, and survived, so I can add homophobic to my collection.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

So you're OK with lesbians accessing assisted fertilisation, as long as they get sperm from a private donor, not the state?

[BlueHeelers]

@SquidwardBound

I agree with that @EndlessTea

I do think it’s problematic that we have started to think of parenthood as a basic human right, regardless of biological reality. That kind of thinking has lots of implications - in lots of different areas of life.

Indeed.

I think this is the problem - the human right to a 'family life' is [mis]interpreted as a right to a family.

[SquidwardBound]

@BlueHeelers

Indeed.

I think this is the problem - the human right to a 'family life' is [mis]interpreted as a right to a family.

Where ‘family’ is taken to mean your ‘own’ children.

[SquidwardBound]

@TooBigForMyBoots

So you're OK with lesbians accessing assisted fertilisation, as long as they get sperm from a private donor, not the state?

I’m not sure that’s a fair characterisation of @EndlessTea’s comments.

It’s seizing on a single word and missing the bigger picture.

[SquidwardBound]

For example, I doubt she is going to argue that the commercialisation of gametes is a good thing.

There are so many issues with the fertility industry that don’t get talked about because people are so fixed in the idea that adults simply have the right to fertility/children.

I don’t think the discourse of rights is at all appropriate for framing adult fertility issues at all.

[EndlessTea]

@TooBigForMyBoots

So you're OK with lesbians accessing assisted fertilisation, as long as they get sperm from a private donor, not the state?

There are a few things I am ‘unhappy’ with around ‘assisted fertilisation’ irrespective of anyone’s sexual orientation. I am uncomfortable with anonymous ‘donors’, state provided or otherwise (there’s a whole threads worth around that - so I am not going deeper into it here).

If there is an infertility issue, then a patient’s sexual orientation is irrelevant, in my opinion, in their accessing treatment for it.

So in a case of a lesbian who has concertedly tried and failed to conceive using a ‘known donor’, and discovers she has infertility issues, then, I believe, of course she should be able to receive treatment for that infertility, just the same as a woman with a male partner.

[EndlessTea]

I doubt she is going to argue that the commercialisation of gametes is a good thing.

Thank you, so much more succinct than me.

[TallulahBetty]

Available yes, on the NHS no. This goes for all couples regardless of sex.

[ÉireannachÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ]

@JacquelinePot

Two women or two men of the right age, having regular, unprotected sex are not on a level playing field with a straight couple in terms of potential to reproduce, neither are single men or women. The only ones who potentially have the chance to reproduce are the straight couple. That's not homophobic, it's just reality. Is it the job of the NHS to level that playing field?

Being same sex attracted (or being single) is not an illness, disease or disorder. That's what the NHS is for, treating illnesses, diseases and disorders. I'm not convinced NHS resources should be used on healthy people. The genie is out of the bottle and realistically if you can pay for it yourself, you can have it.

I think reproductive technology is an ethical minefield and I'm not really sure where I stand on the various methods/treatments.

I am very worried about lesbians and single women being used as a wedge to gain acceptance for surrogacy (which I believe to be abhorrent). If we accept that every person should be able to have their own children and it's an issue of equality, we are opening the door to surrogacy because gay male couples and single men don't have anywhere else for their foetuses to gestate except in the uterus of some third part, likely vulnerable and or poor, woman.

You are right to worry; it is a slippery slope. In my opinion nobody has a right to procreate. I don't agree with IVF (privately or publicly funded) and think that because this has become normalised we will soon be exploiting women (except it wouldn't be referred to as exploitation of course) all in the name of equality. You watch.

[LuckyDonna]

I have 2 children with my , now ex, husband.

If this had been available 30 years ago, before I had my children with my ex husband, I wonder if the path my life took would be different.

If the possibility of assisted conception, funded or not, was the norm, would I have saved myself years of crap-ness with him when I could have gone it alone. Assuming I could find a donor.

Who knows. Maybe this would improve divorce rates (kidding).

[TooBigForMyBoots]

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I am very worried about lesbians and single women being used as a wedge to gain acceptance for surrogacy (which I believe to be abhorrent).

That door has already been opened by rich, heterosexual, largely white couples wanting poor brown women to carry their DNA/babies. Start there. Not with lesbian women.

Exactly. But hey, first rule of misogyny: it's a woman's fault. And in this case its lesbians fault.

[EndlessTea]

🤔 Is it normal to blame the person/people ‘being used’ for something, to say it is the person/people’s ‘fault’ for being used?

Or is it normally seen as the users fault?

[ÉireannachÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ]

@TooBigForMyBoots

Exactly. But hey, first rule of misogyny: it's a woman's fault. And in this case its lesbians fault.

Nobody has stated or insinuated that this is the fault of women/lesbians.

[Myaiminlife]

@ÉireannachÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ

Nobody has stated or insinuated that this is the fault of women/lesbians.

Well apart from the couple of posters that have blamed infertile women for world over population. I mean the one child I had thanks to IVF is the problem - the three I would have had if I could have conceived without IVF wouldn't have been because well erm I'm not sure why really.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

@TinselAngel

God this is getting tedious. That's not what I said. I said that if you argue for anybody having a "right" to children, (eg by saying lesbians have a right to IVF because it's the only way they can conceive and therefore is necessary for "equality") then you need to think through the consequences of your argument. In particular, to be consistent you'd have to argue gay men also have a right to children which will involve increased use of surrogates. You then have to wonder where the surrogates will come from to fulfil that right and of the detrimental effect this would be likely to have on women.

This post is very much insinuating that the consequence of lesbians using assisted fertilisation will be surrogacy and detrimental to women.

Surrogacy is not the fault or a consequence of lesbian mothers. Women's rights are lesbian rights and should be equal.

[Ghist]

I think, once you’ve decided that surrogacy using donated sperm is available to infertile couples, there’s very little reason to deny the same to lesbian couples.

If both members of lesbian couple are infertile then yes they should have access, otherwise no.