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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

“We want gas and air to be available for women and….”

194 replies

AnyFucker · 09/03/2023 07:24

You guessed it… “birthing people”

Morning telly, right there 🤢

OP posts:
3peassuit · 10/03/2023 17:47

Birthing people indeed. Utter tosh. The word is women.

DrDinosaur · 10/03/2023 20:06

ResisterRex · 09/03/2023 08:47

I stand with AnyFucker on this one.

Me too.
The word ‘women’ includes everyone who can give birth. Adding anything is using the language of the gender religion.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/03/2023 20:23

I think I dealt with how we teach children about reproduction

You really didn't. You said:

A fairly reliable rule would be, if you were born with a penis you very likely produce sperm, if you were born with a vagina you very likely have eggs.

Why is it a "reliable rule"? Why if you were born with a penis are you likely to produce sperm?

Sorry, I should have said if you were born with a vagina you probably have a uterus

Why do these two things go together? It clearly isn't a matter of pure chance if they "probably" are found together, is it?

DrDinosaur · 10/03/2023 20:32

Ponderingwindow · 09/03/2023 13:22

I can live with this language. It is a bit clunky and seems a bit silly and repetitive, but in this argument has always been about inclusion, not just about the erasure of women from the public discourse. When women aren’t specifically named, we don’t feel included. Here we are. It also keeps are the word women in the discussion of birth.

while I think women is a neutral term that covers anyone who might give birth regardless of how they personally identify and they think that birthing people fills the same role, there is no getting the two groups to agree on this, so clunky language may be the only compromise.

The problem is this isn’t a compromise. It’s an obeisance.
There is no compromise possible between the two positions. Either you use standard English, and ‘women’ are adult human females, including women who want to be men/non-binary/womblegender, or you use the language of the new religion.

ArabellaScott · 10/03/2023 21:57

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/03/2023 20:23

I think I dealt with how we teach children about reproduction

You really didn't. You said:

A fairly reliable rule would be, if you were born with a penis you very likely produce sperm, if you were born with a vagina you very likely have eggs.

Why is it a "reliable rule"? Why if you were born with a penis are you likely to produce sperm?

Sorry, I should have said if you were born with a vagina you probably have a uterus

Why do these two things go together? It clearly isn't a matter of pure chance if they "probably" are found together, is it?

Quite correct, Eresh, this wasnt answered at all. I'm sure aseries will be back soon to explain how we explain reproduction.

I think we'd got to the point of explaining 'people with penises' can impregnate 'people with a uterus' but not how a child will know whether they have a uterus.

ArabellaScott · 10/03/2023 21:58

Plus call me daft but I'm a bit uncomfortable reducing children to their genitals. I prefer 'boy' and 'girl'.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/03/2023 23:17

How very antiquated of you Arabella!

aseriesofstillimages · 12/03/2023 11:54

If you think we’re not done with how to teach children about reproduction, ok. It’s difficult to talk about these things without context, as it obviously depends very much on things like the age of the child and your relationship to them (teacher, parent). At the point when they are able to understand it, children obviously need to be taught about male and female reproductive systems, and what it means for their bodies as they go through puberty. That would include (probably later on) chromosomes and how bodies develop down one pathway or the other, due to the effects of genes and hormones while in the womb, but also the variations that can arise in that process in a minority of cases, and that not all bodies develop in the typical way.

But if we’re talking about what we first tell our own children, when they ask where babies come from, I would tell my child that a scientist had taken an egg from my partner (or possibly a kind stranger, if we end up having to use donor eggs), and sperm from a kind stranger, and mixed them together so that they joined and formed the tiny seed that can grow into a baby, and then they put it in my partner’s tummy to grow until it was ready to come out as a baby. And I would teach them that families are made in many different ways, and although you have to have an egg from a female body, and sperm from a male body, and a uterus in a female body to grow the baby in, what really matters is who looks after you and loves you- that is your family.

ArabellaScott · 12/03/2023 14:40

Thanks for coming back to explain your view, aseriesofstillimages

you have to have an egg from a female body, and sperm from a male body, and a uterus in a female body to grow the baby in

You're using male and female to mean biologically male and female.

All sounds brilliant, and pretty simple to understand for any child or young person.

What happens once we suggest that male people can also be 'women'. Or that female people can also be 'men'?

nilsmousehammer · 12/03/2023 17:25

I did fully agree that children should be taught about reproductive fact, and parents not allowed to conceal this knowledge from their children, and that families are formed differently etc etc. I was right behind it.

Now that path of access has been captured by a political lobby for brainwashing kids with quasi religious, faith based quackery that suppresses reality and trains the subordination of females to males? It's one of those things I've now got a lot of doubts about, because those without morals are trying to use the 'if you try to stop me brainwashing woo you're saying kids can't have access to this basic any more' vehicle.

nepeta · 12/03/2023 17:47

That compromise does not work. Either 'woman' is defined on the basis of sex or it is defined as an abstract feeling in the brain (the new secular religion of the NHS).

But this compromise takes the sex-based definition and uses it for the first part and then takes the identity definition and uses it for the second part.

You can't mash the two together like this, because if we define 'woman' on the basis of sex, then both the mentioned groups are women (and perhaps girls, but of the female sex), so the compromise is double-counting. If we use the feeling-feminine definition, then the first part of the compromise includes trans women who can't give birth and should not be mentioned in this context.

The fight we are ultimately having is about which definition to use and why this very much matters.

BellaAmorosa · 12/03/2023 22:37

nepeta · 12/03/2023 17:47

That compromise does not work. Either 'woman' is defined on the basis of sex or it is defined as an abstract feeling in the brain (the new secular religion of the NHS).

But this compromise takes the sex-based definition and uses it for the first part and then takes the identity definition and uses it for the second part.

You can't mash the two together like this, because if we define 'woman' on the basis of sex, then both the mentioned groups are women (and perhaps girls, but of the female sex), so the compromise is double-counting. If we use the feeling-feminine definition, then the first part of the compromise includes trans women who can't give birth and should not be mentioned in this context.

The fight we are ultimately having is about which definition to use and why this very much matters.

Agree.
Switching meanings back and forth to suit is why adherents of gender ideology love the word "gender" so much - because it has several meanings and can therefore be used in specious arguments. "Sex" is unambiguous.

Eatentoomanyroses · 12/03/2023 22:41

FourTeaFallOut · 09/03/2023 08:06

How many transmen are actually giving birth each year anyway? Apparently in 2019 it was 22. It doesn't seem like the order of scale that necessitates all these protracted and obfuscatory caveats unless that number has shifted hugely. And of that number, how many are delivering vaginally and using gas and air for pain relief? At this point, with such diminishing numbers, it might be as useful to refer to 'Women and also John, Barry and Fred' on national segments on this topic.

😂😂 John, Barry and Fred have got a fair bit to answer for

Codlingmoths · 12/03/2023 22:59

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/03/2023 08:52

Well said AF. Only women give birth. Facts and science matter.

Once the NHS can provide safe maternity care that doesn't maim and kill women and babies, then they can pontificate about the demands of others. Until then, they have one job and that's to provide safe maternity care for women and babies.

I feel like this. If they can’t meet their single overriding priority they haven’t time or money for other initiatives.

Logicoutofthewindow · 13/03/2023 06:09

Only women can give birth. Biological fact.

A woman that 'thinks' she is a man that is giving birth is obviously still a woman. Fact. Why bother to pretend to be a man and then give birth. Not much of a man then since only women can give birth.

Deluded people out there.

ArabellaScott · 13/03/2023 07:28

Logicoutofthewindow · 13/03/2023 06:09

Only women can give birth. Biological fact.

A woman that 'thinks' she is a man that is giving birth is obviously still a woman. Fact. Why bother to pretend to be a man and then give birth. Not much of a man then since only women can give birth.

Deluded people out there.

Yes. This is the line I will hold. She is free to call herself whatever she wishes, but she cannot compel others to maintain a fiction, any more than I can compel HCPs to agree that I'm 25.

Logicoutofthewindow · 13/03/2023 07:31

'Women and also John, Barry and Fred' well that's what they are.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/03/2023 12:07

It's quite telling that you haven't answered my questions @aseriesofstillimages

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/03/2023 12:16

What we basically have is that you understand perfectly well that biological sex exists, and that there is a male and a female reproductive system. The nouns for human beings of the male sex are boys/men and the nouns for human beings of the female sex are girls/women.

However you personally believe there is an indefinable "woman" quality which transcends the biological sex it was originally intended to describe, and can be found in some male people (and vice versa with "man" and female people). And don't want to invalidate the feelings/beliefs of these male people (or female people if they believe they are men) so you think phrases such as "all pregnant women" etc shouldn't be used and "pregnant people" is better? Is that correct?

ArabellaScott · 13/03/2023 12:25

I thought aseriesofstillimages had had a change of heart and was now in agreement with us. He/she/they are using 'male' and 'female' to describe biological sex, and I presume will agree that only women, females, can become pregnant.

Mrsherdwick · 13/03/2023 13:29

So they’ve added words - birthing people when they should have added the word safely. We want gas and air safely available for women. Better use of added words here.

aseriesofstillimages · 25/03/2023 00:16

ArabellaScott · 12/03/2023 14:40

Thanks for coming back to explain your view, aseriesofstillimages

you have to have an egg from a female body, and sperm from a male body, and a uterus in a female body to grow the baby in

You're using male and female to mean biologically male and female.

All sounds brilliant, and pretty simple to understand for any child or young person.

What happens once we suggest that male people can also be 'women'. Or that female people can also be 'men'?

Sorry it’s take me so long to come back to this.

I would explain that, because almost everyone has either a male or a female reproductive system, and because for most of history this was regarded as possibly the most important difference between people, society came to regard us and categorise us as two completely different types of people based on this distinction - girls and boys, women and men - and it was commonly believed that the category a person fell into largely determined what they were good at, what they liked, how they should dress and behave, who they should be attracted to.

It also meant that people were sorted at birth into those two different categories of people, and given different types of names, and different ways of being referred to in language.

It is only relatively recently that a lot of people have started to question and reject some or all of this way of looking at people. There are now quite a few of us who believe that the nature of your reproductive system doesn’t dictate what sort of person you are. But many of the same assumptions are still very prevalent, in some cases unconsciously, and generally people are still more likely than not to conform to some extent to the ways of dressing and behaving that are expected of their sex.

Some people feel very unhappy with the category they have been sorted into, and want to be regarded as belonging to the other category, or neither category, or both. Some people also feel very uncomfortable with aspects of their bodies and physical appearance which are associated with the type of reproductive system they have.

There are drugs and surgeries which can to an extent change these aspects of people’s bodies, to make them appear more similar to the type of body associated with the other type of reproductive system. However, this is not straightforward and can have serious complications, and a person can never have a reproductive system other than the one they were born with.

FrancescaContini · 25/03/2023 07:43

@aseriesofstillimages
”People were sorted at birth into two categories” - what in God’s name are you on about?

I’m PMSL at your re-imagining of the birth process, particularly on a board called MUMSnet. Most women here know exactly what happens when a woman gives birth, thank you very much. And I can assure you that no “sorting into two categories” has ever gone on, or ever goes on.

As for everything else you wrote: it’s taken you a very long time to come back with this fantasy explanation. I have a sneaking feeling that a) you’ve never given birth (no criticism/judgement implied here); b) you haven’t left school yet.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/03/2023 08:47

😂😂😂Not surprised that took you such a long time aseriesofstillimages but well done for trying.

ArabellaScott · 25/03/2023 10:39

Hey, well done for coming back with a thoughtful explanation, aseriesofstillimages.

This is for kids, right? You suggested young kids - it's been a while, but I think you said 6 years old or so?

I would explain that, because almost everyone has either a male or a female reproductive system

So we are going with 'male' and 'female'? Good stuff.

and because for most of history this was regarded as possibly the most important difference between people, society came to regard us and categorise us as two completely different types of people based on this distinction - girls and boys, women and men - and it was commonly believed that the category a person fell into largely determined what they were good at, what they liked, how they should dress and behave, who they should be attracted to.

It also meant that people were sorted at birth into those two different categories of people, and given different types of names, and different ways of being referred to in language.

Sex is determined at conception and often observed in utero, if not at birth. But okay. What you're saying is that we have men and women and words to describe them. Sure.

It is only relatively recently that a lot of people have started to question and reject some or all of this way of looking at people. There are now quite a few of us who believe that the nature of your reproductive system doesn’t dictate what sort of person you are. But many of the same assumptions are still very prevalent, in some cases unconsciously, and generally people are still more likely than not to conform to some extent to the ways of dressing and behaving that are expected of their sex.

Sex stereotypes. Fine.

Some people feel very unhappy with the category they have been sorted into, and want to be regarded as belonging to the other category, or neither category, or both. Some people also feel very uncomfortable with aspects of their bodies and physical appearance which are associated with the type of reproductive system they have.

Now that's where we get the illogical leap. People object to stereotypes - fine. But why on earth would someone think that objecting to sex stereotypes meant that they are the opposite sex? Or don't have a sex?

To me this is saying:

'I think stereotypes are just socially created and reinforced myths, and I don't like the ones associated with my sex, so I'm going to choose the myths associated with the opposite sex and claim that they are my true inner essence and this is more meaningful than sex and actually changes my sex'.

It's starting off sensibly, by questioning stereotypes. But then decides that the stereotypes must actually be true in as much as they have any association at all with sex.

I suppose that's the crux of the whole 'gender' argument, isn't it? Whether stereotypes are fabricated, imposed and reinforced (feminist view) or somehow innate (genderist view). I can see both sides of the argument, but it's bloody complicated and nuanced if we're talking to six year old kids.

Kids need sex education that is clear, but most of all AGE APPROPRIATE. Sex ed that leaves kids baffled or at risk of accidental pregnancy is actively harmful.

There are drugs and surgeries which can to an extent change these aspects of people’s bodies, to make them appear more similar to the type of body associated with the other type of reproductive system. However, this is not straightforward and can have serious complications, and a person can never have a reproductive system other than the one they were born with.

Yeah, okay. But all of this seems very very complicated for a six year old who has asked where babies come from. How would you answer that?

I'd say: 'A man has sex with a woman and this can result in a child'. For a six year old.

There is no way to explain reproduction without reference to male and female sex.

Obscuring the terms and muddying the language is risky, as well as illogical and anti science.