Page 5 | “We want gas and air to be available for women and….”

AnyFucker · 2023-03-09T07:24:52+00:00

You guessed it… “birthing people” Morning telly, right there 🤢

ArabellaScott · 09/03/2023 12:45

Mangomingo · 09/03/2023 11:37

Problem with woman and birthing people is it’s a mouthful and it will inevitably at some point get shorted to birthing people as of course that’s more inclusive. Possibly not in official documents but in passing, birthing people will be used more. WABP is already used a lot on course slides etc.
I do feedback a lot at training days etc and am militant in only using women in my own practice. I’m going to be braver though as we have a new mandatory question about it on our booking forms which a) is horribly worded and b) mandatory with no option to decline to answer. Might start a separate thread about it.

Please do. And thanks for pushing back.

ArabellaScott · 09/03/2023 12:46

BluebellBlueballs · 09/03/2023 12:00

You don't see this pandering the minority with anything else. I'm diabetic and should be very completely totally offended to see recipes for cake with sugar as an ingredient. How dare they not change it to canderel for me and my diabetic comrades!

'sweetning product'

ArabellaScott · 09/03/2023 12:50

Floisme · 09/03/2023 12:19

Although I might laugh and make fun at the word contortions, I also think it's imperative that girls are made fully aware that they belong to the sex that gets pregnant and gives birth, and that this applies regardless of how they identify. I don't see anything benign in using language that fudges this.

100%

This is presented as 'merely a small shift in language'.

Having a baby is not a 'small shift'. It's fucking huge. It will impact you for the rest of your life.

Grammarnut · 09/03/2023 13:09

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Grammarnut · 09/03/2023 13:09

They said 'women and other birthing people', which implies two things. 1, women are not people and 2, other people than women give birth.
The first is misogynist and the second is a falsehood.
Not having it.
Not all women give birth but only women give birth and anyone pushing a baby out of a vagina she was born with from a uterus she was born with is a woman, whatever daft nonsense she believes.
And don't anyone suggest that men could have vaginas and uterii retro-fitted because you need more than a uterus and a vagina to carry a child within your body.

Deathbyfluffy · 09/03/2023 13:12

Newyeardietstartstomorrow · 09/03/2023 07:27

Well on the plus side, if they make it about men it's more likely that a safe solution for actual women will be found. We all know how it works.

What a load of nonsense. Plenty of women have discovered and improved the kinds of medicine that are used for births - without any input from men.

I know it's 'that section' of MN, but turning it all around on men negates the amazing discoveries and work women have done in this area of medicine IMO.

Ponderingwindow · 09/03/2023 13:22

I can live with this language. It is a bit clunky and seems a bit silly and repetitive, but in this argument has always been about inclusion, not just about the erasure of women from the public discourse. When women aren’t specifically named, we don’t feel included. Here we are. It also keeps are the word women in the discussion of birth.

while I think women is a neutral term that covers anyone who might give birth regardless of how they personally identify and they think that birthing people fills the same role, there is no getting the two groups to agree on this, so clunky language may be the only compromise.

ReadersD1gest · 09/03/2023 13:25

Ponderingwindow · 09/03/2023 13:22

I can live with this language. It is a bit clunky and seems a bit silly and repetitive, but in this argument has always been about inclusion, not just about the erasure of women from the public discourse. When women aren’t specifically named, we don’t feel included. Here we are. It also keeps are the word women in the discussion of birth.

while I think women is a neutral term that covers anyone who might give birth regardless of how they personally identify and they think that birthing people fills the same role, there is no getting the two groups to agree on this, so clunky language may be the only compromise.

Yeah, women do not have to be grateful for their inclusion in a discourse about childbirth, thanks all the same.

Floisme · 09/03/2023 13:26

If inclusion really is the aim then why don't they use 'Women, regardless of how they identify'?

BlackeyedSusan · 09/03/2023 13:31

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2023 12:19

“For some autistics”

nice.

I think Susan is autistic herself and that's the term she chooses to use.

Yes, and thanks!

And I had one particular autistic in mind...

... Me!

and betting dd would be similar. (Also autistic)

BlackeyedSusan · 09/03/2023 13:35

Grammarnut · 09/03/2023 13:09

They said 'women and other birthing people', which implies two things. 1, women are not people and 2, other people than women give birth.
The first is misogynist and the second is a falsehood.
Not having it.
Not all women give birth but only women give birth and anyone pushing a baby out of a vagina she was born with from a uterus she was born with is a woman, whatever daft nonsense she believes.
And don't anyone suggest that men could have vaginas and uterii retro-fitted because you need more than a uterus and a vagina to carry a child within your body.

Please explain 1: why not people (having a receptive language problem, )

BluebellBlueballs · 09/03/2023 13:39

Floisme · 09/03/2023 13:26

If inclusion really is the aim then why don't they use 'Women, regardless of how they identify'?

Well we all know the real reason. That would upset the TRA/ TW agenda to separate all female biological functions from the word woman.

This isn't about transmen at all IMHO

Grammarnut · 09/03/2023 13:40

BlackeyedSusan · 09/03/2023 13:35

Please explain 1: why not people (having a receptive language problem, )

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Oh, sorry. Not clear! 'women and other birthing people' implies that in some sense women are not people, birthing people are people. Semantics, I suppose, but the erasure of women as people seems to be one intention. I am reminded of a story by Joanna Russ, when a group of men from Earth arrive on a planet where there are only women (parthenogenesis - birth without male input to conception - is involved), look around, see no men and then ask where all the people are. That's where I am coming from.

SinnerBoy · 09/03/2023 14:10

BluebellBlueballs · Today 12:00

I'm diabetic and should be very completely totally offended to see recipes for cake with sugar as an ingredient. How dare they not change it to canderel for me and my diabetic comrades!

You have mis-sweetened my pot of Stevia. They is now a weeping puddle of snot and tears. I suppose you're happy now, eh?

BluebellBlueballs · 09/03/2023 14:16

SinnerBoy · 09/03/2023 14:10

BluebellBlueballs · Today 12:00

I'm diabetic and should be very completely totally offended to see recipes for cake with sugar as an ingredient. How dare they not change it to canderel for me and my diabetic comrades!

You have mis-sweetened my pot of Stevia. They is now a weeping puddle of snot and tears. I suppose you're happy now, eh?

I see what you did there with the 'they'...

ReadersD1gest · 09/03/2023 14:17

BluebellBlueballs · 09/03/2023 14:16

I see what you did there with the 'they'...

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Yeah 😂

NotAnotherBathBomb · 09/03/2023 14:40

That's fine. They said women.

NotAnotherBathBomb · 09/03/2023 14:42

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/03/2023 08:52

Well said AF. Only women give birth. Facts and science matter.

Once the NHS can provide safe maternity care that doesn't maim and kill women and babies, then they can pontificate about the demands of others. Until then, they have one job and that's to provide safe maternity care for women and babies.

Facts and science don't actually change that 'women and birthing people' includes all females. They haven't said 'all women, including trans women'. That would be a statement against fact and science.

ReadersD1gest · 09/03/2023 14:47

NotAnotherBathBomb · 09/03/2023 14:42

Facts and science don't actually change that 'women and birthing people' includes all females. They haven't said 'all women, including trans women'. That would be a statement against fact and science.

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Do trans women really expect to be part of a dialogue about analgesics during childbirth? They're the male of the species. They know this, deep down.

GailBlancheViola · 09/03/2023 14:57

AnyFucker · 09/03/2023 07:38

Only women give birth. I do not accept any other language or attachment to that word.

100% with you on this AnyFucker.

NotAnotherBathBomb · 09/03/2023 15:05

ReadersD1gest · 09/03/2023 14:47

Do trans women really expect to be part of a dialogue about analgesics during childbirth? They're the male of the species. They know this, deep down.

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I was replying to a PP that said ‘only women give birth. Facts and science matter’. I said that ‘women and birthing people’ are factually correct. Trans women was only used an example to show what would have been factually incorrect.

Floisme · 09/03/2023 15:11

I disagree that it's factually correct. The 'and' implies that there are other people in addition to women who give birth.

Floisme · 09/03/2023 15:11

And yes I think it matters.

ReadersD1gest · 09/03/2023 15:44

NotAnotherBathBomb · 09/03/2023 15:05

I was replying to a PP that said ‘only women give birth. Facts and science matter’. I said that ‘women and birthing people’ are factually correct. Trans women was only used an example to show what would have been factually incorrect.

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Only women give birth is factually correct. You can call yourself a tree should you be so inclined, but only women with female biology can give birth.
The "birthing people" are women, regardless of what they like to call themselves. If they were male, they wouldn't be on a maternity ward 🤷🏻‍♀️

JellySaurus · 09/03/2023 16:21

Floisme · 09/03/2023 08:14

If we accept 'women and' we're accepting that there are people other than women who give birth. I don't think it's a coincidence that this is being adopted as a 'compromise'. We all know where it can lead when we think 'Oh let it go, it doesn't matter'. I think we need to hold the line.

There are other linguistic compromises I might accept - they're long and clunky but that's ok by me, let people see how long winded and tongue-tying it is.

Yes, it's like pronouns "Let it go, it doesn't matter, it's just manners/Kind"