I don't agree with the ad-hominem comments on Sam Smith, India Willoughby et al.

[TERFCat]

Basically as the title says.

I think gender ideology can be robustly criticized without the need for comments on any individual's appearance or dress sense.

If you go to Twitter, a lot of the GC accounts I follow are currently laughing at Sam Smith for his latest magazine cover. I don't like SS, but I do think that they is free to dress how they want. SS shouldn't be body shamed either as they has a perfectly normal body.

Same goes for India. Don't like them, but I don't think their clothes etc should be mocked.

I laugh at SS the same way i laugh at any ridiculously pretentious idiot making a living out of being in the public eye.

The they stuff is just more silly on the top. Like a cherry 🍒

The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. Especially if you are a pop star.

Yeah generally I agree with you, OP. I try and avoid getting into any personal attacks on social media. It is the kinda thing that when amplified can be too much/ potentially harmful. I mean it can be quite funny too but I'd rather have those kinds of conversations/ share observations like that in person. It's a pub chat. I try and be mindful of using social media in this way.

Stick to arguing ideas

If you don’t want people to take the piss out of you, maybe don’t dress up like a bouncy castle.

People can wear whatever they like but they don't have the right to control what others say about them regardless of whether it's positive or negative.

That's life. Dress like a twat and people will call you a twat.

I think there's a place for all that silly dress up, so I'm not fussed either way. That's celeb culture and high fashion- it's all ridiculous.

Saying people shouldn't have the right to comment on what he wears is ridiculous.

It’s less like commenting on Brenda from HR’s unflattering haircut than it is criticising walkers for launching a new line of vomit crisps.

And here endeth the thread.

@hryllilegur has said all that needs to be said on the matter.

@TERFCat I agree 100%

I think SS is actually brave being photographed wearing those unflattering, sex-appeal withering outfits. It’s a performance art thing and it does succeed in provoking a reaction in me - the widespread ridicule, the horror and the disapproval are an essential part of it - like he is working through ways to accept himself.

Similarly, IW is making a career out of this. How IW a looks and presents IW is all part of the product.

I don’t think IW would be anything other than a local news hack without the whole IW “first trans news presenter” schtick.

I hate the way Sam Smith dresses. Not because of their body or gender identity but because it's so utterly false. You look at people like Elton John and David Bowie and they absolutely rock the wacky clothes because it's a look that's true to their personalities. Sam Smith looks like they've fallen into someone else's dressing up box.

Stick to arguing ideas

Arguably these brands are ideas.

Sam Smith the person is separate from his act. The dressing up in a rubber flatulence suit and stuff is his act. It’s not him as a person.

If you don’t want people to take the piss out of you, maybe don’t dress up like a bouncy castle.

😂😂😂

Actually scratch what I said above.

@HorribleNecktie has added something very valuable to the discussion.

This has nothing to do with gender. SS is putting the B in LGBT. B for bouncy castle 🙌🏻

If there was a discussion elsewhere on MN about Sam's attire, or if we were discussing it before he decided he was non-binary would anyone be wringing their hands and worrying? I doubt it. We'd all be saying "look at the silly sod dressed up like an inflatable black pudding ffs"

I am gc and think SS wears awful outfits and is a twat. My dds are not gc and they think SS wears awful clothes and is a twat. What's your point?

Sam Smith has a tantrum resulting in Brit's making a category gender neutral. Consequence is no females nominated at all.

GC people point out Sam (a celebrity who is courting attention) wears a ridiculous outfit and Sam Smith has hurt feelings.

One of these actions is definitely more harmful than the other. Now which one is it .... > ponders > ...

Mocking celebs is fine by me as long as the commentary is humorous.

This goes for all badly-dressed celebs, regardless of biological sex or gender identity.

I used to absolutely adore websites like Regretsy and Go Fug Yourself.
Laughing at shit fashion choices is always fun, but it’s extra fun when the wearer is a pompous personality type.

If you take the piss out of me because I have a big nose, that's bullying.

If you take the piss because I'm wearing a foot long prosthetic nose, that's fair game.

He is ridiculous. He's trying to be ridiculous.

I think it would be more powerful to ignore the fool though.

This "they" shit is ridiculous. Understanding for dysphoria is one thing but this gender stuff is rot, rubbish.

There is no such thing as "non-binary" or "gender fluid" because gender has no physical basis, unlike biological sex. Gender roles are social conditioning - trans ideology reifies gender as if it is something tangible.

Demanding to be called they, zir, hir or any other of the tortuous variations is ridiculous self-indulgence and it's an outrage that people (mostly women) are ostracised for refusing to go along with it.

It's bloody silly and deserves mockery.

Well said.

It's ridiculous to say people can wear what they like and everyone has to shut up about it. Just thinking on that for one second is enough to realise it's complete nonsense.

It's also not what Sam Smith wants. He's not looking to be accepted for dressing like that- he wants to be talked about.

@HorribleNecktie perfect life advice.

I did agree with @TERFCat but then saw the black party feature- incredible.

Saw a theory that he's humiliating himself because of some sort of thing with a sexual partner.

"they are" is grammatically correct, not "is".

Seems to me that Harry Styles is lauded for his outlandish dress sense - he's worn dresses galore, nail polish, make up, mesh etc, often looks ridiculous

Sam Smith? No, because he's fat. And I think that's a lot to do with it

I'm not a Sam smith fan but I did laugh at his fisherthem comment. He's clearly taking the piss out of his detractors and for that reason I almost warmed to him.

But not quite