Will smears be done by men/TWs in future?

[WeepyWillow]

I had a smear test this week. The female nurse asked whether I wanted a chaperone in the room with us.

Bemused, I asked what she was on about. New policy apparently. Previously, if a male medic is performing an intimate examination the (female?) patient is offered a chaperone. But now, For Equality, the offer is made to all irrespective of sexes involved.

Is this to pave the way for TWs doing smears? Will the offer of a chaperone be to cover the NHS back?

I know from breast examinations that a female is always in the room when a male doctor examines. They don't even ask you, the team of two will be in the room. For mammograms a female x-rayer is guaranteed. But what might that mean in future?

On the one hand I think, don't be so ridiculous Weepy, it'll never happen. But on the other...

At the moment I can ask to see a female GP, no problem. For most complaints the sex of the doctor is irrelevant but sometimes I feel more comfortable talking to a woman. Might I lose that option in future?

This 100%.

I have a male gynae - has done smears, colposcopies, has taken a biopsy from my cervix. There's always a female chaperone without him even asking......I don't have any issues at all. He's an amazing dr

Same.

I'd have a problem though if he started using me as a prop and lying to me.

I’m with you on this.
I had one done by a male recently- just doing their job. Just like I expect a TW/M would. Nothing sexual about it.
Thats not to say it was a positive experience.
The extra person - or female chaperone - made me feel like I had an audience. Instead of one, I had two people conferring about my cervix insides and having a chat about it. The ‘chaperone’ nurse didn’t even ask whether they should be present, they just told me they would be ‘torch-barer’, while she shone the hand-held torch between my legs and the male consultant did the internal exam. The chaperone then realise the torch wasn’t working well and the two of them stood back for a moment there as she smacked the torch to get it working, while I lay there with my legs open and a speculum in. It was so upsetting. No dignity.
Their gender meant nothing to me, the ‘chaperone’ caused my upset by being unprepared and creating an audience.
Any gender is welcome to help care for me once care and dignity is at the very heart of their practice.

I'd have a problem though if he started using me as a prop and lying to me.

That's the problem I would have with any TW HCP. I want HCPs to be both science-focused and patient-focused. In a way it is no different to Catholic doctor refusing a woman access to abortion.

What?

We’ve always offered chaperones for any intimate examination. It’s protection for the clinician as much as it is for the patient.

My surgery has lots of posters up saying ask for a chaperone if you want one. Most of my smears, colposcopies and other cervical stuff has been done by men - I've easily had 20+ of the things. I've never requested a chaperone, but often have a parade of medical students doing stuff on me, make and female.

I don’t know if this is a myth but have read something similar to the OP. At the moment there is the option to request a female practitioner for certain things but that it may become harder for nhs trusts to exclude trans women from that definition - with the consequence that you’re removing the choice to exclude males for women patients

Doesn't the use of chaperones add an expense though? I understand completely the motivation but we are paying a qualified NHS staff member to essentially do little when it is apparent we have a staffing crisis in the NHS? I think there is possibly an implicit distrust of professionalism of we bring in chaperones; the vast majority of NH S staff are utterly professional so why the need (granted false accusations could be avoided)?

I'm in my 50s and have never been asked if i want a chaperone for a smear test. They've always been done by a female nurse. If I was being told it was being done by a male I would decline.

That's my experience to date.

Clearly some areas have offered chaperones for a while. But as it was new to me it set me wondering where the change in policy came from. The nurse said it was for Equality. Not to protect her against vexatious claims.

I've had sweeps to induce labour and wasn't offered a chaperone.

I’ll carry on looking for more recent figures but these are interesting be going on with.

Between 2007-2011, there were 56 doctors cautioned or convicted for sexual offences that the GMC investigated to decide whether to allow them to continue practising. 26 were allowed to continue.

In addition 56 have also been barred for sexual misconduct - an inappropriate relationship with patient of staff that didn’t involve a conviction or caution.

In the absence of further information I am assuming that the proportion of male/female offences is the same as in the wider population at 98:2

These figures are just for doctors, not male nurses, midwives or other HCPs - some issues with whom I mentioned earlier.

I think it is very important for women to be allowed to choose a female HCP - there are many reasons for this. I have never been offered a smear by a male nurse and would be horrified if I was.

‘Equality’ in recruiting for that sort of job puts the men’s feelings above the women’s feelings and health and I don’t think the NHS should be doing that.

I too think the system works, now.

But what will happen when there are many many times more trans women/trans men in healthcare?

I wont have an intimate exam by either, but I'm confident in standing up for myself, what will those women (and men for that matter) who cannot stand up for themselves going to do?
It's as good as sexual assault as no consent, and you cannot force consent, that's not how it works.

I cannot care about bias or lack of bias in the NHS recruitment, people require same sex care, if that leads to employing more women, oh well, what a shame.

For myself only I wouldn't have a problem with a fully transitioned TW with a the legal gender change document.
But if they haven't fully transitioned then I want a biologically female HCP.
However I don't want a fully transitioned TM either as although their sex is biologically female their gender is male and they are living as a male.

But I'm wondering how you accommodate that?

I know the above might not make sense to some but this is just for me only.
e.g. Caroline Cossey was a HCP I would be happy for her to do my smear test.
But not Balian Buschbaum as although born biologically female, he I think has fully transitioned & is gendered male & looks like a 'man'

However I agree that you should still have the choice of whether you want a biological female/male HCP.
What about women (biological) due to religion, past trauma etc that must have a biological sex female that is also a gendered female HCP do their smear, mammogram etc?
Or men (biological) who must have biological male sex, gender male to do any intimate examination?

Now will probably get into trouble for this but a biological male wearing a dress & not fully transitioned or on the route to be fully transitioned is not a 'woman' as in gender in my head.
And the same goes for a biological woman wearing trousers & not fully transitioned in or on the route to being fully transitioned is not a 'man' as in gender in my head too.

@TracyBeakerSoYeah if someone has to medically transition to be considered female, that would limit the likelihood of this being an issue. If a man like Isla Bryson can declare themselves female then it would become more common. To date the Scottish Prison Service has adopted a self id policy, independent of any legislation.

I don't know what self ID policies different NHS services have. Perhaps they have self ID for patients but not employees. I have seen a confusing smear test campaign aimed at 'people with a cervix'.

I had a smear performed by a male nurse recently. I was asked if I was ok with that and that I would have a female chaperone (who I think was a receptioninst/admin). I took a gamble because I'd read that male nurses are often better and luckily for me it was. It was the best smear that I'd ever had. He put it up slowly as opposed to the usual jam it up and it didn't hurt in the slightest!! I was concerned that he hadn't done it properly because it hurt so little haha.

My last smear was done without chaperone, and i don't remember being asked if i wanted one. I've got one booked for next week (doesn't three years just fly by) so I shall be interested to see whether I'm asked or not and if there is just one there regardless.

re mammograms I'm currently trying to pin down my NHS trust on what their definition of female is with regards mammograms. As the paperwork for the initial mammogram stated female only staff. But when queried with so far three different members of staff the answers have ranged from unwillingness to discuss to well if a transwoman applies for the job we can't say no and the service would still be single sex!?! Despite them apparently running the department under the single sex exemption. Someone has gone off to look into it further (check with the legal department i suspect).

Whilst I wait for their response it was interesting in the fact that the letter for me to return for more mammograms and biopsies at the main breast unit didn't have the female only on the letter, and there were male members of staff floating around the department.

My dd went to the GP for a smear test recently, it became clear that it was to be undertaken by a man. She was told that she had no choice in the matter. She left. I have advised her to complain.

She def should complain. It's not on.

Was that because there was only a man available at that time though? It should have been made clear in advance though, even if it was a last minute phone call because the women wasn't in. I can't imagine any GP practice would insist she could only have a man attend to her.

@MammogramResults beyond the initial mammogram there will be male doctors galore. Good luck, hope you are clear.

I've had smears and internal exams done by men - i've had chaperones offered/provided sometimes- but not always women
the worst experience being male doctor, male nurse and 6 male medical students - male doctor told me to stop being silly when i flinched... BUT it was more that the doctor was a complete jerk and I was too young to have said no to all the students- the male nurse was actually fine and very reassuring.
In the last year or so I had a very intimate exam (for childbirth repairs) by a male doctor and wasn't offered any chaperone but had a smear by a female doctor who offered me a female chaperone
in summary its totally messed up and inconsistent - the issue for me is that you are not always given time to process what you are being offered or what you want- its often presented as "you're fine to do this aren't you" and i politely say of course..the default position is no chaperone unless you ask whilst i think it should be the other way round
I think i'd be more uncomfortable with a trans woman doing the procedures than a man- it feels more sexualised/odd

"Their gender meant nothing to me, the ‘chaperone’ caused my upset by being unprepared and creating an audience."

I doubt they just assume you need a chaperone with male patients, so maybe a bit of a double standard. Yes, they may sometimes be used anyway for policy reasons.

No idea. My dd was told 'it is me or nothing and you don't get your smear today'. Whatever the reason totally inappropriately communicated.

I'm sure I've seen articles recently about how women generally have better results if their surgeon is also female (I'm assuming this excludes tw, although rare I know there's at least one late transitioning tw surgeon).

I've always had my smears done by female nurses, ditto the one mammogram I had. I think I'd be very upset if I was expected to believe a tw was female, some do pass though but not many. I believe women do have the right to single sex intimate care, that this is being interpreted as including tw is fucking outrageous. I'd heard at least one police force believes it's okay for a tw officer to carry out intimate searches on female suspects. If the woman objects she might face charges.

This is all down to Stonewall and similar lobbying groups who, for years, have been putting their own spin on legislation which was meant to protect the dignity, safety and privacy of women.

As an aside I'll just leave this here. It's a link to the MN petition page. Trying to get enough signatures to get the Government to update the Equality Act to try to repair some of the damage. If you haven't already please sign it, get your friends and family to sign it. It's on the Government petition website so it is completely confidential.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4722618-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-2?page=30