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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anyone know the truth about the protests against Drag storytime at the Honor Oak Pub?

249 replies

LindorDoubleChoc · 25/02/2023 19:06

WHY DO CHILDREN NEED STORIES READ TO THEM BY DRAG QUEENS?

This is the pressing question above all!

Anyway, does anyone local know what actually happened. There was a police presence and organised protests apparently. I would love to hear the full story from someone directly involved.

It has become an unbecoming row on our local Facebook page (SE23 Mums). The hectoring posts have been created by the pro drag side.

OP posts:
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Spidergloves · 26/02/2023 08:31

I used to enjoy a lot of drag, I just don't think it was ever supposed to be mainstream like this. And you can see as usual there's so much American thinking behind all this which I despise.

US drag queens have recently gone big on issues with people using their 'government names' (ie... names) and the affront they take is catching on over here now too as if it's some sort of conspiracy of hate.

There are still drag acts I enjoy but the culture is so different now. The pretence that a lot of their livelihoods rest on is that of a drag 'sisterhood' so I imagine the cost of eg speaking out about some of the dodgier aspects of the culture (from pronouns and trans kids to the murder in Cardiff) could be the end of your career, reputation and community standing. No big loss this board would say, but some diversity of thought and critical thinking on that side is very badly needed. I don't see any big drag act speaking out any time soon though.

StephanieSuperpowers · 26/02/2023 08:31

Well it's a very easy shut-down and a nice comfy way to convince yourself that you're right.

It is both of those things. But ultimately, it'll drive a wedge into the broader left umbrella because most of us who actually care about this are part of the left consensus. Driving us out to better facilitate people who think that love has no age or whatever is not a long term strategy.

ValancyRedfern · 26/02/2023 08:36

Did the SE23 mums discussion get deleted? I've just been on and it's all stairgates and baby clothes for sale. (Although I should probably stop rubbernecking on fb groups of where I used to live and get on with my day!)

Hubblebubble · 26/02/2023 08:40

I came across drag queen story time by accident, halfway through, at the library. Toddler DC loved it. It was very high energy story telling with lots of fun voices and the style of drag was sort of princess/panto Dame. It wasn't serialised in the slightest.

Hubblebubble · 26/02/2023 08:40

Autocorrect! It was sexualised

Hubblebubble · 26/02/2023 08:40

Wasn't! Right I'm off for coffee

Jackiebrambles · 26/02/2023 08:41

ValancyRedfern · 26/02/2023 08:36

Did the SE23 mums discussion get deleted? I've just been on and it's all stairgates and baby clothes for sale. (Although I should probably stop rubbernecking on fb groups of where I used to live and get on with my day!)

No a very goady one from a local dad has been left up along with a load of mean comments. Which has annoyed me as the admins have deleted the others.

Zodfa · 26/02/2023 08:51

One of those idiotic things where people have to support something just because the Other Side are against it. (Of course there's plenty of this on the right too.)

LindorDoubleChoc · 26/02/2023 08:57

I'm sorry @thedancingbear but what do you mean by "this isn't fair" where you've quoted me. I'm saying it's painful that legitimate concerns about putting drag culture and children together are being co-opted by a nasty right wing political group. Isn't this what happened in SE23? What isn't fair about what I said?

OP posts:
thedancingbear · 26/02/2023 09:04

LindorDoubleChoc · 26/02/2023 08:57

I'm sorry @thedancingbear but what do you mean by "this isn't fair" where you've quoted me. I'm saying it's painful that legitimate concerns about putting drag culture and children together are being co-opted by a nasty right wing political group. Isn't this what happened in SE23? What isn't fair about what I said?

Sorry @LindorDoubleChoc, I've misread you slightly. I think we are pretty much on the same side here.

Mafelicent · 26/02/2023 09:19

thedancingbear · 26/02/2023 08:04

Sorry, just to add, this is exactly how reactionary far-right organisations work. They often have little ideology of their own, except anger and hate, but piggyback on popular/populist causes to get people to support them. And before people know it, they agree with them on half a dozen points (some of them reasonable, some of them not), and you find you've elected a bunch of violent anti-democrats (or, again, in the case of the UK, not). And that's when it gets really nasty.

That's why we need to stand up to these groups' presence, even when our views appear to momentarily coincide.

I'm a teacher, and we've been talking a lot in class recently about how this is exactly how people like Andrew Tate operate. It's a very effective approach, but much less dangerous/persuasive once people see it for what it is.

Floisme · 26/02/2023 09:23

The lesson for me here - and it's one we should have learned years ago - is that, if something or someone makes us go, 'Huh? What?' then we should say so.
We should say so and we should say so loudly, even if it means getting called a pearl clutcher by a stranger on the internet. Because if we don't say it, then other people - people we want absolutely nothing to do with - will say it instead. And then we really are in the shit.

StephanieSuperpowers · 26/02/2023 09:34

I mean, I don't agree that we haven't been trying. It's not like we haven't been talking, it's just that nobody wants to listen.

Floisme · 26/02/2023 10:03

StephanieSuperpowers · 26/02/2023 09:34

I mean, I don't agree that we haven't been trying. It's not like we haven't been talking, it's just that nobody wants to listen.

Yes, sorry if it sounded like I was talking about FWR posters or even Mumsnet posters. I definitely was not - this is about the only place where I've even seen anyone asking questions about it. I was thinking much broader than that.

Bananaramen · 26/02/2023 10:04

ValancyRedfern · 26/02/2023 08:36

Did the SE23 mums discussion get deleted? I've just been on and it's all stairgates and baby clothes for sale. (Although I should probably stop rubbernecking on fb groups of where I used to live and get on with my day!)

The posts on SE23 mums in support of DGST are still there, but those against it got deleted. There’s been a lot of heated debate so now comments are turned off.
I agree the most recent post by a local dad is quite goady and mean spirited.

I think the whole thing has become quite divisive.

Those who took part in the counter-protest are now patting themselves on the back saying how great the protest was. And yes it was good to protest against TPUK.

But actually there’s quite a few parents now feeling upset that they have been vilified on local forums and labelled fascist Daily Mail readers for expressing their concerns about drag for kids, and so actually I don’t think this whole thing has been that great for the local community.

lifeturnsonadime · 26/02/2023 10:05

It just seems to me that the suggestion is that because this issue has been taken on by some undesirable groups that we can't object for fear of aligning with those groups.

The same thing happened in Brighton when a baby was shouted at by 'anti fascists' because the parent was there to support women's rights.

Part of the problem here, as someone pointed out upthread, is the misuse of the term. It appears to be being appropriated by the 'left' to stifle free speech. It seems absurd that left wing women can't object to the sexualisation of children without being told we are aligning with fascists by people who normally have similar political leanings. So what are we supposed to do? Stop pearl clutching and accept things we know to be wrong? The same for erasure of language and women based rights? The argument the 'left' uses is polarising the issue and does not set a sensible scene for discourse. One must assume, therefore that the left is pro- queering our children and everything that that man with the sign stands for.

So @thedancingbear I've read a lot of your posts here where you are saying what the problem is with objecting but I haven't seen, and I may have missed it, any suggestions to how this issue is addressed.

How is any of this helpful? It plays right in to the hands of people like LOJ who has no issue with calling left leaning women bigots.

It's putting me off ever voting for any political party that won't listen to reasonable concerns without stating that these concerns are aligned with the far right.

Bananaramen · 26/02/2023 10:25

It’s very difficult, I don’t know the answer.
Definitely the left wing want to stifle debate - it’s all seen very much either you are in favour of everything LGBTQ++, and if not you are a right wing Trump supporting Daily Mail reader.

There’s no opportunity to be anything in between.

As a left leaning feminist (with concerns for child safeguarding from experience) I feel politically at sea, and that there’s very few people I can talk to about this.

Ginmonkeyagain · 26/02/2023 10:29

I am local and TBH it all seemd to be a bit of a storm in a tea cup. The Honor Oak is an ok but rather dull local pub, as far as I understand this is part of wider programme of family events they do. As people have said, if yoi don't like it, don't go.

It is common for pubs in London to host family events during the day. Partly to increase revenue and partly as there is a lack of affordable community spaces in London (many church halls and community centres have been sold off over the years).

On the two issues - I find the debate over drag story time a bit odd, as people have noted drag has been part of mainstream entertainmemt for ages (Dame Edna, Monty Python, The Krankies, Pantomime, Music Hall etc.. etc..) if people suspect an individual performer is inappropriate for an event then a complaint to local licensing/safeguarding is surely more appropropriate than a protest?

That said I find the current very mainstreaming of drag by otherwhelmingly straight, middle class people a bit cringe, it is such a cliched indicator of how progressive and cool you are - eg drag bingo, drag brunches. It is all a bit - well - basic. These people would run a mile.from Divine or the infamous door bitches at Madame Jo Jos back in the day.

StephanieSuperpowers · 26/02/2023 10:33

People are going to find this very judgemental, but it's been bothering me since reading the description of the event as being aimed at kids while parents have a bottomless brunch. The mix of giving parents inhibition lowering substances while directing these performances at children seems very suspect to me. Tipsy parents can't be attending carefully to what their children are being exposed to there. It's very worrying that some adults think this is an appropriate environment in any sense.

Ginmonkeyagain · 26/02/2023 10:34

On the second issue of counter protests. Turning Poont UK are clearly an unpleasant right wing group and there is a lot of sensitivity about the far rifht in this area.

Under the diverse and (more recent) naice middle class exterior, there lurks a small but persistent far right politics problem in this area of London. We regularly get strange right wing groupuscles standing in elections round here. They usually fail miserably but they are present enough for people to be concerned.

RichardBarrister · 26/02/2023 10:36

HowardKirksConscience · 25/02/2023 20:29

But why do drag queens want to read children stories? No one from DQST has answered this satisfactorily yet.

I did see at least one DQ being honest about that - it is to introduce Queer Theory to children and young people. After watching the video below I think it is more about introducing QT to the parents and persuading them that it is ok to push the boundaries of appropriate behaviour around children.

Queer Theory is about breaking down normal boundaries around sex and things like age etc.

Once the normal boundaries are broken, it is very easy to keep pushing them. We have seen how some parents have already been persuaded to accept behaviour from DQST that is a huge red flag around children. Supporters mock and attempt to shame parents with normal safeguarding instincts. They take their kids to Pride events which feature ‘furries’ and BDSM promoters dressed in bondage gear. Their focus is on demonstrating how ‘cool’ and ‘right on’ they are, they have forgotten to keep the kids safe.

The DQs openly exhibit sexualised behaviour, from making sexual jokes to an audience of children (about opening their legs), to allowing children to touch and hug them in the genital area and being photographed with children lying on top of them or naked around children (apart from glitter and a penis cover). That’s what they do in full view of the public - what else happens behind closed doors?

The fact that all this is happening and some parents are still cheering them on is the worry (and the goal). If DQST were keen to keep things safe and appropriate for children, they would have called this out and firmly distanced themselves. They are not, instead, they are continuing with this behaviour and defending it. DQs, ‘furries’ etc - it is all designed to break down barriers and attract children.

We know that one of the main DQs in DQST is currently raising funds after the sudden death of his close friend, another DQ. The bit he doesn’t publicise to his donors is that this DQ was convicted of 4 child rapes and was constantly attempting to work with children to get access to more victims.

Who thinks it is ok to work with children and remain good friends with a child rapist?

Almost all of the DQs that have come to public attention in the last couple of years for performing in schools and libraries to children have sexualised or pornographic content on their social media or in their performances and we have seen much evidence of their rejection of appropriate boundaries around children.

I am not suggesting that there is any specific or immediate risk to children attending these events. We know that sexual predators will play a very long game and put in a lot of effort on behalf of themselves and of other predators (they are quite ‘generous’ - we know that a paedophile will work for years to get children into a vulnerable position where abuse can occur even if he will not directly benefit in that particular case - someone else will do the same for him). I am talking about a wider push to break down the barriers that protect children. So far it seems to be working.

Please watch this video and see if it rings any bells.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=pHk4rypFwL8

RichardBarrister · 26/02/2023 10:39

StephanieSuperpowers · 26/02/2023 10:33

People are going to find this very judgemental, but it's been bothering me since reading the description of the event as being aimed at kids while parents have a bottomless brunch. The mix of giving parents inhibition lowering substances while directing these performances at children seems very suspect to me. Tipsy parents can't be attending carefully to what their children are being exposed to there. It's very worrying that some adults think this is an appropriate environment in any sense.

I think you are 100% correct. See my post above.

MarshaBradyo · 26/02/2023 10:41

What’s the plus of it being Drag anyway?

Plenty of entertainers that just keep dc amused without that part

Ginmonkeyagain · 26/02/2023 10:43

I could be wrong but I think two separate events are being conflated - the pub runs a regular, drag queen hosted, bottomless brunch - which is adults only. The children's story time event was a separate thing just for LGBT history month I think.

Not that I have been - I have strong views on bottomless brunches (drag hosted or otherwise) - none of them good. 😂

RichardBarrister · 26/02/2023 10:45

On the two issues - I find the debate over drag story time a bit odd, as people have noted drag has been part of mainstream entertainmemt for ages (Dame Edna, Monty Python, The Krankies, Pantomime, Music Hall etc.. etc..) if people suspect an individual performer is inappropriate for an event then a complaint to local licensing/safeguarding is surely more appropropriate than a protest?

You might be confusing old school drag that was mostly on tv or stage (ie not up close and personal) and mostly not aimed at children (Krankies excepted but they were totally non sexualised).

‘Drag Queens’ are an entirely different concept where their whole heritage and performance is based on a sexualised appearance (exaggerated ‘female’ hair, boobs, make up etc) and frequently misogynistic (using the nickname ‘fishy’ as a reference to smell relating to women’s vaginas) and as we’ve already seen, sexualised jokes even to mainly child audiences. They are not the same thing as panto or Les Dawson at all.

Please see my post above re boundaries. This is not about the kids bring at risk at the events, this is about persuading the parents to stop protecting the kids.

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