Idea to solve the toilet/changing room 'problem'

[VoodooQualities]

1. Government consults special interest groups (women, trans, disabled, religious etc.)

2. Guidance is issued on best practices for designing and building mixed sex, inclusive facilities that work, as best as possible, for all the interest groups. (So you know, that'd likely be wall to floor lockable doors, no steps or narrow spaces, sinks and showers inside the cubicles), cleaners and other staff (or CCTV?) highly visible in shared areas etc etc.)

3. Organisations when doing refurb or new builds, can choose to (a) implement the guidance, or (b) go for traditional sex-segregated, or (3) gender-segregated facilities depending on their beliefs.

4. Customers and service users can vote with their feet. (Perhaps there's a register so potential patrons can check in advance what the facilities are like.)

5. Organisations are allowed to challenge customers who transgress boundaries, and customers who do so should expect to be challenged.

I would assume that publicly run facilities like pools and council buildings etc should go for the mixed sex option, done in line with the guidance.

Can I have your thoughts?

Women said no

"But how to do you know the person stood next to you is genetically female without asking and believing them? "

The previous social contract was for men to stay out and for the very very few transsexual males to discreetly pop in and out and use a cubicle.

That has been broken by AGPs filming themselves wanking in women's toilets posting it online and calling it euphoria. And not a single one of the Be Kind crew calling it out.

Also, most transwomen don't pass on first glance. And none of them pass on a second glance.

Interestingly the place near me that has now got a ‘gender neutral’ toilet due to a campaign that was started by a young non-binary biological woman, is used by men. The non-binary woman used the ‘gender neutral’ toilet for a few weeks but now uses the women’s. Haven’t asked her why but I would like to know.

Strange that isn't it @Tinysoxxx after all @Grumpybutfunny has told us that these toilets work for everyone don't you know so why would they not work for the non-binary woman who campaigned for them? After all how can the non-binary women tell that they are men who are using them, does said non-binary woman know the gender identity of these people? What say you @Grumpybutfunny , where does this leave your argument?

Perhaps we should stop framing men's desire to infiltrate women's spaces as "needs"
That'd be a good start

It would also be good to stop pretending that trans people are excluded from spaces. They are welcome to use the spaces designated for their sex class.

Im a strong woman, how am I any less of a threat than a man, surely it's my strength you are worried about as most men aren't predators.

1. You can't force me to risk pregnancy by raping me. A man can.
2. Over 95% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by men and boys, according to the National Office for Statistics.
3. A strong woman will still be weaker than the great majority of men, due to not undergoing male puberty.

As for your ridiculous assertion that we cannot judge sex by sight and must ask, I remind you that male puberty causes differences to secondary sexual characteristics that are extremely difficult to conceal. I was recently at a social event and noted very quickly that one of the other guests seemed a bit odd-looking and I couldn't quite figure out why. When "she" spoke, my ears told me that the oddness was a result of a very thorough attempt, involving prolonged oestrogen therapy and surgery, to conceal male secondary sexual characteristics and develop female ones instead. Even with all that effort, the mismatch of residual male sexual characteristics attracted my attention and had me wondering what was different about this person. There are excellent evolutionary reason, namely our safety and freedom from forced pregnancy, for women to be able to sex-categorise someone at a glance and to notice when someone doesn't appear to fit into a sex category. Sexual assault survivors often have a heightened ability to do this.

I actually relaxed more after I heard this guest's male voice because I now understood why the guest had the slightly-odd appearance that had attracted my attention in the first place. The psychological phenomenon I experienced is similar to the uncanny valley, in that I found it far easier to accept someone who I knew to be a transsexual male than an almost-but-not-quite-right-looking woman. The uncanny valley is perhaps something that trans people should bear in mind when considering whether to be "out".

@Grumpybutfunny Please read up on the effects of trauma on the brain. I know girls and women who cannot share toilets with men, because it is too anxiety provoking for them. That includes not being able to queue with men in a small room in front of cubicles. Some of these women and girls also get highly anxious if toilets are top to floor closed cubicles. I also know little girls who get scared if toilets doors are closed at all. They are not old-fashioned or prudish, they are severely traumatised and this trauma is hard-wired into their brains. These facts might be highly inconvenient for activists, but that doesn't make them less true.

Google hidden camera toilet and tell me honestly if you believe that all the women in those images knew and agreed to being filmed. The women who were filmed in toilets right around from where I live certainly didn't.

I find your position ignorant, unkind, exlusionary and naive.

"After the likes of Jamie Bulger who wants to be split up from their kids of the opposite sex just so people don't feel embarrassed!"

His name was James and he was murdered 30 years ago.
Parents have managed safe toilet visits in the three decades since then, thank you for your concern.

Although, now I come to think of it, we now have the likes of Katie Dolatowski and Jessica Yaniv to concern us, don't we?

Although, now I come to think of it, we now have the likes of Katie Dolatowski and Jessica Yaniv to concern us, don't we?

Not really because the chances of meeting the two people you named are infinitely small. But when toilets become mixed sexed you have every male welcome. And then everyone realises there will be problems - hence the full length doors. But then this discriminates against many groups due to safety and hygiene (see my long post around 15.18).

The only way to make public toilets as safe and accessible to as many people as possible is for them to be single sex and have gaps above and below the doors. If there is enough toilets, then a gender neutral set can be made for those who may feel more comfortable in the opposite sexed toilet - but this ideally should be taken from the men’s allocation because in my limited experience, it seems men are more likely to use them.

And if this isn't working for all interest groups, tough luck? I don't think it's bending over backwards to listen to everyone and then balance needs (and wants)

I don't class men wanting access to women's facilities as an 'interest group'.
You don't take away single SEX facilities because some men think they are entitled to use them.

I'd run the consultations, don't worry 😉. Id make sure women's voices were listened to

The issue here is that you include men in your definition of women.

I have had men refuse to even get something out of my handbag when asked. They would rather just bring me my bag than go looking in my 'female space' handbag. I don't know any men that would want to use female toilets or changing rooms. This makes me question what sort of men would freely do so.

Or you could have the obvious solution that's been around for decades, namely potty parity legislation. 1:2 in favour of women would be a good start to get closer to equal wait times, although some argue it should be 1:3 or 4. Then some unisex cubicles to supplement that.

No, because if my employer chooses to go with the unisex "guidance", what then? I still don't want to be near blokes in the toilets, and I don't care that "official" guidance now validates it. All it does it make it even harder for me as a woman to speak up!

Also - why are this experiment starting from a point of mixed facilities when single sex has always been the norm? In doing this you've already handed the advantage to the (tiny minority) "interest group"!

No thanks.

Only way to make this work would be to designate all mixed sex facilities as sitting down only and equip them with splash back paint for floors and walls. Seems to work OK for deterring back alley urination so why not in this setting.

thesafegroup.co.uk/blog/splash-back-paint-tackles-urinating-in-street

Because piss being splashed back onto a bloke’s slacks and then walked around his workplace indefinitely is better than mopping up piss from a toilet floor? 🤡

While that paint is interesting a targeted attempt to deter drunks from pissing up the walls of our high streets doesn’t seem at all suitable for the enclosed space of toilet cubicle - the splash back will get transferred to things the next occupant will touch, either on purpose, eg tap handles and the button on an air dryer or by brushing a leg against a toilet pan or an arm or bag against the wall

Some men do habitually sit down to piss, I hear it’s very common in Holland and Germany, but it’s seems utterly silly to expect all males to change their habits for the sake of mixed sex loos that most people, male and female, don’t want.

Plus urinals reduce physical footprint of the toilet area in a public building, lesson queuing time and are far more environmentally friendly than flush loos.

We can’t walk back on environmental progress for the sake of a tiny percentage of people who won’t accept that their sex is relevant to life, to law, to society.

Personally, I would much rather not be subjected to male piss smell, it’s just stronger and harder to eradicate than female piss smell, something that can be observed across the mammal kingdom. A public toilet can be perfectly clean and tidy yet the gents bogs will always smell worse than the ladies.

This isn’t something that chaps can do anything about and even if men’s loos are less messy (which I seriously doubt, although I’m sure the gents bins need less frequent emptying and are thus less likely to overflow) they still smell more.

Foisting mixed sex facilities on everyone is pointless because it will cost loads and make everyone less happy.

Just add a few extra single user spaces (big enough for parent and child together) and leave everyone else out of it.

Transgender women want to be in the women's toilets.
It's part of their fantasy- discussing lipstick and handing out tampons.

Mixed sex public toilets?

No, thank you.

I know no males, of any age from 8-80 who would be comfortable using mixed sex facilities.
The only males who would be ok with it are the sort of males who absolutely shouldn't be allowed in.

No solution that involves male born people (aka men) in women's spaces. Not even the gentle, fragile ones with nice hair.

I'm strongly in favour of single sex spaces, but it's becoming harder and harder to fight for so I reckon we take it all back to basics and agree genitals don't define sex/gender....

Toilet provision becomes:
Those who have a penis (however they choose to identify)
Those who do not have a penis (ditto)
Those who have a penis but don't feel safe around others with penises.

Covers all bases and protects women

Jfc, no.

Sex and genitals are intrinsically tied together barring some very rare exceptions.

Let's not complicate it, ffs.

Facilities divided, where important, by sex.

It's not difficult. Why is it made out to be so bloody difficult????

Toilet provision becomes:
Those who have a penis (however they choose to identify)
Those who do not have a penis have a vulva (ditto)
Those who have a penis but don't feel safe around others with penises

A woman is not defined by lack of a penis. We are not incomplete men.

I would welcome additional self-contained toilet provision that is large enough to take a parent with buggy and children or a musician with a double bass or a traveller with a huge suitcase, as long as it is in addition to the single sex loos and accessible loos that women and disabled people fought hard for.

Umm no -

Anyone who has or has ever had a penis uses the toilets for the sex class of the penised, their identity is irrelevant.

And yes I agree with the @bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg women are not lesser un-penised people, that's quite the insult.

No. Doesn't protect women.

Women are not a minority special interest group. They are half the population and always will be. We have male and female facilities for a good reason, that reason still exists. It exists whether you are black, white, disabled or whatever other category you choose to mention.

What exists works just fine and suits its purpose.

Provision cannot be an 'add on' extra for businesses. That is crazy.

Third space facilities are the only obvious solution, alongside the existing sex based provisions.