Idea to solve the toilet/changing room 'problem'

[VoodooQualities]

1. Government consults special interest groups (women, trans, disabled, religious etc.)

2. Guidance is issued on best practices for designing and building mixed sex, inclusive facilities that work, as best as possible, for all the interest groups. (So you know, that'd likely be wall to floor lockable doors, no steps or narrow spaces, sinks and showers inside the cubicles), cleaners and other staff (or CCTV?) highly visible in shared areas etc etc.)

3. Organisations when doing refurb or new builds, can choose to (a) implement the guidance, or (b) go for traditional sex-segregated, or (3) gender-segregated facilities depending on their beliefs.

4. Customers and service users can vote with their feet. (Perhaps there's a register so potential patrons can check in advance what the facilities are like.)

5. Organisations are allowed to challenge customers who transgress boundaries, and customers who do so should expect to be challenged.

I would assume that publicly run facilities like pools and council buildings etc should go for the mixed sex option, done in line with the guidance.

Can I have your thoughts?

You really know lots of women who do not want share spaces with women simply because they are gender non conforming?

Even mermaids say gender is a spectrum. How would if be possible to segregate by a spectrum?

Sorry I am not sure what you mean.

What I meant was, I know lots of young women who want to welcome transwomen into their spaces because they believe TWAW

What I meant was, I know lots of young women who want to welcome transwomen into their spaces because they believe TWAW

But why should they be able to give away the rights of other women?

As a pp has stated young trans boys tend to use female facilities as it is safer.

Amending facilities to accommodate men who want everything just doesn't benefit women and actually is to our detriment.

No one minds additional facilities being created for those who feel they need something other than sex based provision.

What women are having to do now is go to bloody court to demand and enforce that accessible spaces are equally kept and provided for females who can only access female only spaces.

Why is this necessary?

Due to fantastically entitled men with a quite staggeringly misogynist political lobby behind them. Who don't want accessible facilities for themselves: who want to remove female only spaces from females and openly enjoy the impact, the exclusion, the dominance, the control.

Fuck. That. Fuck it to the far side of fuck and then fuck it some more. Let's face it: a LOT of this is about that men are going to have to learn to cope with the word no.

I did have to laugh wryly at that.

In the course of the 'consultations' for the GRR bill, the Scottish Government consulted only women's groups who follow the tenets of TWAW, as set by...the Scottish Government (whose policy of TWAW without public knowledge or consultation was criticised by a judge during a court case). Those same groups are funded either partially or entirely...by the Scottish Government, under the 'inclusive' requirements of the 'Equally Safe' funding stream.

So I have no confidence at all in institutionally captured Government's 'consultations'.

And it does sound very much that anyone who disagreed with mixed sex being 'the best option' would just told 'tough shit - you can just self exclude'.

Inclusivity. Isn't it brilliant 🙄

The government has already had a consultation on toilet provision and there has already been a statement given in parliment outlining the changes they plan to make to building regulations. It's a lot more sensible than the OP's suggestions. Basically there needs to be single sex provision plus some 'gender neutral' provision plus accessibility provision.

Unfortunately the TRAs don't like that, they want access to the female toilets (never mind that having a gender neutral toilet similar to disabled toilets would actually make things safer for transmen).

Single sex facilities work very well for women. I have no interest in negotiating away women's right to safety, privacy and dignity. If there is a group who feels their needs are not being met then they are free to campaign for their own facilities rather than demanding access to womens.

Women have said no to men in women's spaces, we will not compromise.

But if we segregated by gender…. And there are 92 genders and rising…. That’s a hell of a lot of toilets in each building isn’t it?

But do they actively want to exclude trans men or non binary women and girls from female spaces?

Well yes Happy, but of course I was referring to 'male' and 'female' toilets where TM and TW are welcomed in to the toilet corresponding to their identity rather than their sex. Woke pubs etc , M&S changing rooms, Primark up until recently when a distressed woman on TikTok made them see sense

I have an easier, foolproof, solution.

Women who are not bothered about sharing private spaces (changing rooms, toilet, etc) with men can do so. By doing so, they can also show transwomen that there's nothing to worry about by sharing these spaces with men.

Those of us who want to keep sex-based provision can continue to do so.

No adaptions or contortions needed.

Pretty sure they don’t want my teeny tiny DD locked up in a man’s prison.

But do they actively want to exclude trans men or non binary women and girls from female spaces?

I am not sure, give me 5 mins and I'll ask my daughter!

Exactly this.

It's not fucking complicated.

Right, I am reliably informed: TW and TM can use any toilet they want.

I asked, well what's the point of having two toilets then?

I got a shrug.

There are massive arguments inside transland at the moment re: who gets to be a lesbian - actual homosexual women who take testosterone and use male stereotype names have long been part of lesbian culture but the men who say they are lesbians are demanding that superbutches and non binary-identifying female people who are exclusively orientated towards other females are kicked out of lesbianism in favour of biological-chaps-in-blouses.

It’s a shitshow.

You are trying to negotiate with a group who are constantly changing the rules.

First it was for a incredibly small group of people who didnt want to stand out. The implication being that they wouldn't go where they didnt pass.

Then it was trans visibility, where it didnt matter if they passed as the opposite sex or not

Then it was fluid, could be women one day, a man the next.

Now we have people who claim to be neither male or female, man or woman.

We are never going to get public facilities to match their demands.

And this is where the whole edifice of Gender Ideology falls down and exposes it for the Men's Rights Agenda it is - Transmen are men - ah, but not when it comes to stuff like prisons or even toilets and changing rooms and especially not when it comes to hereditary titles or estates BUT transwomen are always women when it comes to spaces and services but are men when there is a chance of inheriting a title or estate. And blinkered fools buy this guff.

How could you really vote with your feet though?

So loads of new builds decide to go for the mixed sex option. I hate it, but don't have a lot of choice when i'm in those places, so I'll end up using it. They aren't going to record my unhappiness about it, so it'll look like a win.

Or I'll go elsehwere, and they won't know that I've gone elsewhere, because again there will be no measurements for that. They'll just look at people using the mixed sex facility and think 'great, it's working'.

Or I might not go to the place at all. This would restrict my life if it's somewhere I wanted to go but can't, or needed to go. And again, they aren't really going to know about it. OK if there are two identical coffee shops side by side and they can measure who uses the mixed sex one and who uses the one with sex segregated facilities, maybe. But in reality, no. And I'll just not end up going to place I'd like to.

And even if they do realise that people aren't liking it, they're hardly going to spend large sums to re-do the facilities at that point, especially if they aren't doing well as a business. Or if they are a council-funded place with no funding for renovations either. So again we're stuck with them.

In reality, women will just end up silently unhappy with all the mixed sex options, but not really be able to do anything about it.

And I have no desperate need to avoid mixed sex facilities really; I just don't like them. Men's facilities smell and are messy, and I'd rather not have them in mine. I prefer privacy and dignity. I don't feel particularly unsafe, but I can see that others would feel quite unsafe or triggered. So for very many reasons, I don't see why we should get rid of single sex facilities given that that is what most women are likely to prefer.

If you want to have choices, why not do a big consultation on every new building with all the likely users, and find out exactly what people prefer and why. And if mixed sex spaces are needed, then incorporate a few places in line with the proportion of people that feel they have to have them.

My local hospital has self contained toilets, floor to ceiling opening on to a normal corridor. It seems to work. Our local public toilets are all being changed to separate toilets rather than a block with cubicles. The doors automatically unlock and open after a certain time (think its 15 minutes) so people in trouble would be spotted. I prefer them, hate walking into a toilet block particularly at night.

^ yes ancientgran, I am imagining this sort of thing when I think of what the guidelines might advise is best practice. Based on genuine consultation with the right groups. Not Sturgeon type consultation with paid shills

A local high school had mixed sex facilities. Self contained cubicles with floor to ceiling walls. six on either side of a corridor each with a central sink. Due to complaints they've designated one side for girls other side for boys.

but they still end up smelling and being messy. I'd prefer women's toilets to individual mixed sex cubicles that open on to a hallway.

Are toilet blocks with flimsy partitions with gaps at the top and bottom really good for safety, privacy and dignity? I seem to remember as a school girl they were where the bullies hung out and intimidated quieter/younger girls. Walking into a toilet block at night when it is quiet can be very scary.

^ so ... These were badly designed ones then and no consultation had taken place before they were installed.

They take up a lot more space than the tradional toilet set up, though.

Its ok if businesses have the space and money to provide them, but if not, the number if toilets is reduced. That could lead to problems in places like service stations or in theatres in the interval.