KJK opposing fertility treatment for gay couples

[SapphosRock]

KJK seems to have an ongoing beef with same sex couples having fertility treatment. Why? How is this benefiting women's rights?

Is is definitely not benefiting lesbian rights.

It also appears to be attracting all the homophobes on Twitter.

Donor conceived children do not have the biological connections of children conceived by straight couples.

Of course KJK is entitled to her opinion but this is anti lesbian.

Well of course these children don't! And of course they are entitled to ask about their origins. There are lots of children in this situation (dad fucked off before they were born, mum doesn't know who the dad is, orphans, adopted etc). The adoption process now specifically requires parents to openly discuss and provide info as to their biological parents (where known) as it's acknowledged that this is beneficial to the child.

Why are children of gay couples exempt from awareness that some additional, specific parenting might be required on this issue?

I'm done with 'this upsets me' as a rationale for closing debate.

Totally. We’re adults! It’s ok to be upset and it’s ok to take offence but that’s not a reason to stop other people from stating upsetting realities or saying things that we personally find offensive.

I find everything Jeffrey Marsh says about women, and especially mothers, extremely offensive but I’d rather hear it and be able to argue against they’s points than stick my fingers in my ears and try and get everyone else to plug up their ears too.

That is going to needlessly upset a lot of lesbians.
Well, you're certainly doing your best to make sure it does, Sappho.

I agree. How entitled and conceited do you have to be to think you deserve to go through life without a moment’s ‘offence’, and that this should be achieved by stopping other people from talking?

I don’t think people should shy away from talking about uncomfortable topics because they’re ‘not kind’. I’m currently on another thread discussing whether somebody who is reliant on benefits through disability is ‘entitled’ to have a baby and raise them at the expense of the public as they’re ‘unable’ to work. As a disabled woman who does work, I say no. But we can’t be seen to ‘deny’ LGBTQ/disabled/mentally unwell people anything because it’s ‘discrimination’ or ‘right wing’. Naturally the cost of whatever is requested always falls to the taxpayer, or women.

Donor conceived children do not have the biological connections of children conceived by straight couples.

Again, this is you putting your spin on it and inferring the worst possible meaning. And forgetting that plenty of straight couples have donor conceived children.

Lots of people (myself included) struggle with the ethics of donor conceived children. This doesn't make us anti-lesbian - I have the same reservations about donor conception for single women and straight couples who need a sperm or egg donor.

I'm so bloody annoyed at myself for spending nearly an hour reading this thread but I just couldn't stop. It's like a car crash! Sapphos, love, your take on this is truly bonkers, I mean, I don't even know what else to say.

If this is done for the purpose of the police interview then fab, KJK should be home before teatime.

I’d rather hear it and be able to argue against they’s points than stick my fingers in my ears and try and get everyone else to plug up their ears too.

This makes zero sense. Starting a thread about something is the exact opposite of trying to plug people's ears.

Oh stop with the conspiracy theories
It's really annoying, isn't it when people when people speculate about what you really meant when you said something?
Or about what you were secretly thinking when you said it?
Or about why you chose to say it in the first place?

Only because your thread backfired!

You started a thread about KJK’s alleged homophobia.

What you got was a pretty good discussion about the ethics and consequences of donor gametes., regardless of the sexual orientation of the gamete-recipient.

You were trying to shut down KJK’s opinions and ongoing discussions on the ethics of Big Fertility by plugging up people’s ears with false accusations of homophobia.

You failed,

TLDR but I am a lesbian with a wife and two donor conceived children. We were able to have our kids through “assisted conception”. Neither of us were infertile and, as such, we did not seek infertility treatment on the NHS, we paid for it ourselves. I do not see this as a women’s issue, nor is it something that I believe should be covered by the NHS. I do think the ‘fresh sperm DIY market’ accessed by many lesbians as a cheaper route to pregnancy requires some serious regulation though!

I have thought long and hard about the ethics of donor conception and do have some concerns still about what we chose to do, but I feel we have a good understanding of the issues around our kids not knowing the male half of their biological origins, and agree with someone upthread that this is an issue which requires additional parenting input to navigate, rather than it being a hard moral line that should not be crossed. We have worked hard to be open and honest about this with them, and to help them feel secure within their family. Their donor is contactable at 18 and they know that. My thoughts around surrogacy are very different.

I don’t find KJK’s comment as a stand alone anti-lesbian, and am all for pro-realism and clear language, but I can see how it could act as an open invitation for homophobes to express anti-lesbian sentiments openly.

Is wondering if one person, did a thing, a "conspiracy theory" anyway?

You'd need more people to make a conspiracy surely?

To add around the Big Pharma concerns, there is huge pressure from within the industry to exploit women for their gametes. Lesbians accessing assisted conception services are very vulnerable to this. Instead of being offered IUI (simply depositing sperm in the uterus during the fertile window), they are pressured to opt for a much more invasive IVF procedure, being told it is much more successful (based on success rates for infertile couples probably) and offered a substantial discount on the cost if they donate eggs during their treatment cycle. Price points of IUI are kept artificially high to add to the idea that IVF is a better option financially. I don’t know if the pressures are similar within NHS services, but it would not surprise me. THIS for me is far more of a women’s issue than the idea of free treatment on the NHS for all - women’s bodies being exploited for the benefit of others.

I hadn't thought of that either! But yes, if the accusations of homophobia towards KJK need this kind of batshit bolstering, then it's all rather counter productive.

Again.

To add around the Big Pharma concerns, there is huge pressure from within the industry to exploit women for their gametes. Lesbians accessing assisted conception services are very vulnerable to this. Instead of being offered IUI (simply depositing sperm in the uterus during the fertile window), they are pressured to opt for a much more invasive IVF procedure, being told it is much more successful (based on success rates for infertile couples probably) and offered a substantial discount on the cost if they donate eggs during their treatment cycle. Price points of IUI are kept artificially high to add to the idea that IVF is a better option financially. I don’t know if the pressures are similar within NHS services, but it would not surprise me. THIS for me is far more of a women’s issue than the idea of free treatment on the NHS for all - women’s bodies being exploited for the benefit of others.

That's very concerning. People shouldn't be encouraged to think of these invasive procedures as standard.

What you got was a pretty good discussion about the ethics and consequences of donor gametes., regardless of the sexual orientation of the gamete-recipient.

I agree. The ethics of donor gametes are something I had not previously given much thought but this thread has been very informative and given me lots to think about.

No one has a right to a child.
Infertility is sad, but not life threatening.
The inability to have a child due to being in a same sex couple is not for the NHS to fix.
I don't actually agree with fertility treatment on the NHS for straight couples either, and I say that as someone that gave up on having children.

I don’t find KJK’s comment as a stand alone anti-lesbian, and am all for pro-realism and clear language, but I can see how it could act as an open invitation for homophobes to express anti-lesbian sentiments openly.

This is a very balanced view and I tend to agree.

I don't actually think KJK is homophobic herself but she is very comfortable sending an open invitation for homophobes to express anti-lesbian sentiments openly.

But Sapphos, you appear to be thinking that the people talking here about fertility not being a lesbian issue, are also homophobic. As a result of your own thread!

You might as well say that you too started a thread that's going to attract homophobia

Thank you for this post.

I think currently my opinions (theoretically, I admit!) fall where you and your wife landed practically.

I believe that non-ideal parenting situations must be faced head on and mitigated as much as possible, whether that’s a straight woman leaving her unhappy marriage or a lesbian/bisexual woman in a same sex relationship (or single woman of any orientation) making the decision to have a baby via donor sperm.

Similar line with surrogacy/adoption - babies should not be made with the intent of removing them from the custody of their mother at birth, although I accept that in some specific cases that is the best option for the baby. That removing a newborn from it’s mother for the baby’s own best interest is so serious that it takes multi agency input and a court hearing should not be able to be circumnavigated via surrogacy.

Recognising the seriousness of removing s newborn from it’s mother doesn’t mean that men in same sex relationships can’t be fantastic parents - which is the sort of insane logic leap you need to present doubts about the consequences of Big Fertility tech as homophobic.

(the straight, fertile, able bodied, coupled women with fertile male partners who commission surrogacy babies for purely social/career luxury reasons are actually the big fertility customers I think most poorly of!)

(Also I am skeeved out by the men who offer sperm to pretty much any woman who
requests it via non regulated methods - they ping my creep/pervert radar! Very different to donating to friends/non-blood family once or twice tops)

KJK seems to have an ongoing beef with same sex couples having fertility treatment. Why? How is this benefiting women's rights?

Personally, I have huge problems with the whole fertility industry. I think that all forms of surrogacy should be banned.

But if we are going to allow it, I have no more problem with two women accessing sperm (or, if they cannot get pregnant through donor insemination the full service of IVF) or two men accessing a surrogate than I have with a naice heterosexual couple not being able to procreate via het fucking without contraception.

There is no difference to me.

umbel, I completely agree with you regarding the ethics of "discounts" in exchange for egg donation. It needs a massive regulatory overhaul imo. It is not allowed (in the UK) to buy and sell gametes. Getting round this by paying excessive "expenses" when many women struggling with infertility are already pretty vulnerable in more than a little concerning. I nearly fell victim to it myself a number of years ago. Thankfully, my mum talked me out of it.

I don’t find KJK’s comment as a stand alone anti-lesbian, and am all for pro-realism and clear language, but I can see how it could act as an open invitation for homophobes to express anti-lesbian sentiments openly

Yes. And WTF was the comment she was responding to anyway? Children are the natural result of a desperate drunken het shag out the back of the local as much as they are a 'loving relationship'.

I don't believe we should let the miscellaneous 'phobes make us, however indirectly, police our language. Look how that's worked out regarding transphobia. I hope that any homophobic responses to KJK's tweet elicited at least some push back. It's better to drag their nonsense into the sunlight.

I don't actually think KJK is homophobic herself but she is very comfortable sending an open invitation for homophobes to express anti-lesbian sentiments openly.
'very comfortable....' Here you are again Sapphos, speculating about KJK's inner feelings and her motives for saying what she said. And yet when other posters speculate about your motives for starting this thread, you object and ask them to stop. What do you think this says about you?

So no one should ever say anything, in case a homophobe says something in response?

This thread is the most batshit thing I think I've ever read.

If it's trying to bolster the complaint against KJK you've probably left it too late and it's very, very weak sauce. "KJK knows how babies are made" is not the killer blow you seem to think it is.

If you're trying to prove your TRA credentials, however, you're doing a good job. Batshit accusations - check. Denial of biology - check. Disconnection from reality - check.