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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are the filmmakers of Affirmation Generation anonymous

108 replies

socialmedia23 · 21/02/2023 22:46

DH was actually becoming very convinced by their arguments but then he asked me what was the source? This was triggered by the fact that there was footage of Helen Joyce on GB News. I actually found this documentary on Mumsnet so I didn't actually know. We stopped watching halfway and we did a deep dive into the people behind the documentary

DH has always been very insistent that he needs to establish the provenance of all the news sources/media that he consumes in order to ensure that they are not fake news sources. Since we can't find anything, he is now convinced that the entire documentary is garbage since we can't establish who is behind them and from what we can surmise, it seems to be a group of mothers of trans kids (many of whom are keeping their identities anonymous). Is it that necessary for them to be so discreet regarding their identities? There is also little coverage of this documentary, which lessens its credibility in DH's eyes.

I feel like a lot of people may think like DH and this would mean that an excellent documentary doesn't reach its intended audience. I feel sad because i was really enjoying the documentary and i felt like i was learning so much but then it is overshadowed by the fact that I don't actually know who is behind it! Dh might sound very unreasonable in what kind of media he permits himself to watch but that is because he attended an ultra orthodox jewish school as a child (where he was told many untrue things) and had a father who was a bit of a conspiracy theorist so he has learnt this way of filtering information (only read news and consume media from reputable sources). I tried to explain to Dh that they are keeping their identities anonymous foe fear of losing their jobs. However at the same time, doesn't that mean the whole argument isn't as convincing and isn't the point of the documentary to educate?

To be fair to DH, he does say he will read Helena Barnes' book about the Tavistock Clinic (recommended by FT) and maybe he will then be ready to watch this documentary...

OP posts:
Anactor · 22/02/2023 15:25

Frankly, you began to lose me at the point your (possibly imaginary) DH moved from being ex-ultra-orthodox to only attending an ultra-orthodox primary, while his parents are ordinary orthodox and apparently okay with their unmarried daughter sleeping with her boyfriend in their house.

The 'Jewish' friend who doesn't want to convert just added the icing on the cake. Very convenient bunch of friends and relatives you've got here. Their beliefs seem to precisely match whatever you're arguing at the time.

DaSilvaP · 22/02/2023 15:30

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/02/2023 10:16

Whatever you’re getting paid, it’s too much

Long time ago I was watching an ex-CIA director being interviewed by a journalist who sounded rather idealistic, which prompted this ex-CIA director to state as a simple matter of fact:

"in every country we can find useful idiots [who will do our bidding for free] and outright traitors [who we need to pay]. It's not our job to educate them, but to use them."

Don't ask me for any link, it was ways before the Web was created. I don't even remember the exact year or decade - yes I'm that old.

My point being: don't assume everyone defending child mutilation is being paid to do so.

Farmageddon · 22/02/2023 15:30

You keep mentioning religion as a sort of equivalence here, but it really isn't. Belief is not biology - men who claim to 'feel like women' can never understand the biological reality of women's lives, they are usually basing their feelings on stereotypes anyway.
That's not to say we should hate them or be horrible to them but nor should we have to buy into their version of reality, especially if it harms or inconveniences us.

And actually, most people want to be accommodating in society, the problem comes when laws and policies and language are being changed (without proper public consultation) to facilitate men using women's spaces, taking places on our sports teams, our prisons, our refuges.
That is why there is a pushback, not because we are trying to be mean - we are trying to hold on to the single sex spaces that we need, spaces where no men belong whatever their feelings about themselves.

Additionally, children who are in distress (because of puberty, trauma, autism, confusion about their sexuality or maybe something else) are being told that all their problems are as a result of gender dysphoria and the 'cure' is hormones and surgery. These young people are being lied to and led down a path of irreversible damage.

Eyerollcentral · 22/02/2023 15:32

DaSilvaP · 22/02/2023 15:30

Long time ago I was watching an ex-CIA director being interviewed by a journalist who sounded rather idealistic, which prompted this ex-CIA director to state as a simple matter of fact:

"in every country we can find useful idiots [who will do our bidding for free] and outright traitors [who we need to pay]. It's not our job to educate them, but to use them."

Don't ask me for any link, it was ways before the Web was created. I don't even remember the exact year or decade - yes I'm that old.

My point being: don't assume everyone defending child mutilation is being paid to do so.

Lol lol lol v gd

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/02/2023 16:06

DaSilvaP · 22/02/2023 15:30

Long time ago I was watching an ex-CIA director being interviewed by a journalist who sounded rather idealistic, which prompted this ex-CIA director to state as a simple matter of fact:

"in every country we can find useful idiots [who will do our bidding for free] and outright traitors [who we need to pay]. It's not our job to educate them, but to use them."

Don't ask me for any link, it was ways before the Web was created. I don't even remember the exact year or decade - yes I'm that old.

My point being: don't assume everyone defending child mutilation is being paid to do so.

Even if the OP is doing it for free they’re (metaphorically) being paid too much for the standard they’re achieving

Datun · 22/02/2023 18:07

But the point I was making was that I believe with issues of identity, there is an argument that we can choose what we identify as and it is basic respect for others that we accept their identity..of course there is a limit to this approach..I am happy to use someone's pronouns etc but advocating for full surgery to transition is something quite different. It's not all or nothing. You have a very binary understanding of the world and that inevitably leads to alienation.

No. It's not about a binary understanding of 'the world'. It's about a binary understanding of sex. It is binary.

But that's not the only issue.

Men who want to be women rely on sexist stereotyping. So you can go ahead and respect that all you like. But a cornerstone of feminism is to challenge sexist stereotyping. So you probably won't find many feminists in agreement.

DaSilvaP · 02/03/2023 04:46

socialmedia23 · 22/02/2023 08:18

Being new to the trans issue, I am trying to establish if it's one of those us Vs them kind of issues. I tend to regard these issues with a bit of hesitance as often the truth is much more nuanced..

Phrases like 'lunatic sect' honestly don't convince me.

Phrases like 'lunatic sect' honestly don't convince me.

How would you call a braying mob of the "no-discussion-allowed" school of open-mindedness? Using bullying methods that make the Church of Scientology positively look like a bunch of sweeties?

Just asking for a friend ...

NZdad · 03/03/2023 03:26

socialmedia23 · 21/02/2023 22:46

DH was actually becoming very convinced by their arguments but then he asked me what was the source? This was triggered by the fact that there was footage of Helen Joyce on GB News. I actually found this documentary on Mumsnet so I didn't actually know. We stopped watching halfway and we did a deep dive into the people behind the documentary

DH has always been very insistent that he needs to establish the provenance of all the news sources/media that he consumes in order to ensure that they are not fake news sources. Since we can't find anything, he is now convinced that the entire documentary is garbage since we can't establish who is behind them and from what we can surmise, it seems to be a group of mothers of trans kids (many of whom are keeping their identities anonymous). Is it that necessary for them to be so discreet regarding their identities? There is also little coverage of this documentary, which lessens its credibility in DH's eyes.

I feel like a lot of people may think like DH and this would mean that an excellent documentary doesn't reach its intended audience. I feel sad because i was really enjoying the documentary and i felt like i was learning so much but then it is overshadowed by the fact that I don't actually know who is behind it! Dh might sound very unreasonable in what kind of media he permits himself to watch but that is because he attended an ultra orthodox jewish school as a child (where he was told many untrue things) and had a father who was a bit of a conspiracy theorist so he has learnt this way of filtering information (only read news and consume media from reputable sources). I tried to explain to Dh that they are keeping their identities anonymous foe fear of losing their jobs. However at the same time, doesn't that mean the whole argument isn't as convincing and isn't the point of the documentary to educate?

To be fair to DH, he does say he will read Helena Barnes' book about the Tavistock Clinic (recommended by FT) and maybe he will then be ready to watch this documentary...

Interview with two of the filmmakers of "Affirmation Generation", Vera Lindner and Joey Brite: www.womenarehuman.com/affirmation-generation-interview-with-joey-brite-and-vera-lindner-filmmakers-documenting-the-lies-of-transgender-medicine/

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