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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Roald Dahl books have been edited to remove the word "female" along with other edits.

374 replies

GoChasingWaterfalls · 19/02/2023 08:39

www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/18/roald-dahl-books-rewritten-to-remove-language-deemed-offensive?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

It's literary terrorism.

OP posts:
MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 19/02/2023 09:12

Personally, I prefer the word woman to female as well, when describing someone, but that's not the point! RD didn't write "female" because he'd never heard the word "woman". He chose the word "female" because of the particular nuance that goes along with that. Someone said above that it's dehumanising... well, yes, and it is supposed to be!

Writing is a craft and writers choose their words carefully. We should not just take it upon ourselves to change words. Texts should be left in their original format. If editors are really worried about language that has come to be deemed offensive, they can add a footnote.

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 19/02/2023 09:13

Beamur · 19/02/2023 08:52

If these were books for adults I would agree. But as they're kids books I don't think it is unreasonable to substitute some words - if a word has changed so much over time that it's current use would be offensive or would actually lose the meaning of the narrative then - provided it's thoughtfully done, I think it's fair enough.
Both DH and I have picked up much loved children's books from our childhood to read to our kids and put them in the bin on a further read as by current standards they were appallingly racist or sexist.
Dahl's books should transcend that as they are such brilliant stories. The substitution of a few dated words shouldn't change the enjoyment of new readers.
Presumably the estate of the author will have been involved?

That's ridiculous.

DH and I saved books from our childhood and have read them with DD, when they use outdated or prejudiced language we have explained to DD that times have changed and we now know how wrong the author was when they wrote that. We have conversations about racism and sexism or whatever the book has covered.

We don't throw away or edit history, we use it to learn what we shouldn't do again.

shouldhavetakenmorenotice · 19/02/2023 09:13

Have they dealt with the classism and anti semitism?

If he wasn't so popular he'd have just been cancelled. But money 🤷🏻‍♀️

Bippetyboppityboob · 19/02/2023 09:14

To be a woman is now acceptable, because male people can be women too, but female? That's far too distasteful to mention in a children's book, it seems.

Yep, pretty much this, how depressing.

Hijinks75 · 19/02/2023 09:15

www.inclusiveminds.com/apatt-2020- Re they should write their own books, they probably can’t come up with an original idea between them and if they could it’s doubtful if it would be anywhere near the quality of Dahl works, doubtless will start on Winnie the Pooh next and don’t even mention Harry Potter

shouldhavetakenmorenotice · 19/02/2023 09:16

ExiledElsie · 19/02/2023 08:59

www.inclusiveminds.com/apatt-2020-ambassadors

I just think that if these people have something to say to children they should write their own books.

www.inclusiveminds.com/apatt-2020-ambassadors

This!

ResisterRex · 19/02/2023 09:16

plumduck · 19/02/2023 08:46

References to “female” characters have disappeared. Miss Trunchbull in Matilda, once a “most formidable female”, is now a “most formidable woman”.

What's wrong with that?

It's revisionist opportunism. There are so many things wrong with doing this.

FeinCuroxiVooz · 19/02/2023 09:16

plumduck · 19/02/2023 08:46

References to “female” characters have disappeared. Miss Trunchbull in Matilda, once a “most formidable female”, is now a “most formidable woman”.

What's wrong with that?

the fact that on stage Miss Trunchbull is usually played on stage and screen by a man in drag, combined with efforts to redefine the word woman to mean "whatever a man wants it to mean" rather than "adult human female" does make this change somewhat politically charged

beastlyslumber · 19/02/2023 09:16

So would it be okay to paint out the breasts in an old master, or change the skin colour of the figures in a painting? They're only paintings, times and attitudes change, etc? Should we paint over the Pre-Raphaelite nudes, maybe? If you don't think that would be okay, why would it be okay to write over a book?

Petronus · 19/02/2023 09:17

Lockheart · 19/02/2023 08:49

How does changing "female" to "woman" render something totally unrecognisable or constitute sanitation or terrorism?

Formidable female is alliteration so it reads better than formidable woman.

Waitwhat23 · 19/02/2023 09:18

Although I dislike changes to the author's original text in general, I can certainly see the benefit of removing terms which relate to race or disabilities which are now considered to be deeply offensive. Removing other words such as fat or making characters gender neutral seems entirely unnecessary and where the criticism seems appropriate.

The image attached is a change made relating to wigs in The Witches. It's been rewritten so badly that all the spike and humour and meaning of it has been removed - the authors voice has been lost. It's dull.

Another change which irks me is when they update references in books to modern ones - the new editions of The Naughtiest School Girl by Enid Blyton use £ and p instead of shillings for example - why not have an explanation somewhere in the book explaining how money used to be different, creating an opportunity for children to learn about it? It's something I would have loved as a child.

Roald Dahl books have been edited to remove the word "female" along with other edits.
Beamur · 19/02/2023 09:18

We don't throw away or edit history, we use it to learn what we shouldn't do again

Fair point. I have kept my dodgy Rupert the Bears but DH ditched Dr Doolittle.
I don't think throwing away a few mouldy paperbacks editing history. I think it's choosing not to have racist literature in the house.

watchfulwishes · 19/02/2023 09:18

beastlyslumber · 19/02/2023 09:16

So would it be okay to paint out the breasts in an old master, or change the skin colour of the figures in a painting? They're only paintings, times and attitudes change, etc? Should we paint over the Pre-Raphaelite nudes, maybe? If you don't think that would be okay, why would it be okay to write over a book?

Yes on a copy, no on the original.

No one has changed the original text, it still exists.

Izzy24 · 19/02/2023 09:20

Beamur · 19/02/2023 08:52

If these were books for adults I would agree. But as they're kids books I don't think it is unreasonable to substitute some words - if a word has changed so much over time that it's current use would be offensive or would actually lose the meaning of the narrative then - provided it's thoughtfully done, I think it's fair enough.
Both DH and I have picked up much loved children's books from our childhood to read to our kids and put them in the bin on a further read as by current standards they were appallingly racist or sexist.
Dahl's books should transcend that as they are such brilliant stories. The substitution of a few dated words shouldn't change the enjoyment of new readers.
Presumably the estate of the author will have been involved?

A voice of reason.

XanaduKira · 19/02/2023 09:20

TWETMIRF · 19/02/2023 08:51

It's incredibly arrogant of someone to rewrite somebody else's work as they think that their version is better. Doesn't matter what the changes are and how insignificant they may be, it's not your words, leave them alone

Absolutely agree with this!

BellePeppa · 19/02/2023 09:21

Are they changing the word female to woman because female seems so much more factually a woman but the word woman can now mean man (in a dress) as well?

Lockheart · 19/02/2023 09:21

beastlyslumber · 19/02/2023 09:16

So would it be okay to paint out the breasts in an old master, or change the skin colour of the figures in a painting? They're only paintings, times and attitudes change, etc? Should we paint over the Pre-Raphaelite nudes, maybe? If you don't think that would be okay, why would it be okay to write over a book?

No-one is writing over it. The original text is still available.

I've seen a few pictures where people have changed the sex or skin colour in classic paintings - and as long as they're not vandalising the original copy in the museum I don't really care how others would like to interpret a work of art.

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2023 09:21

BattleofBeamfleot · 19/02/2023 08:57

But then they'd never sell, and would be lost to new generations.

For example, Enid Blyton's works were magical to me as a child. When my eldest was born, I picked up my husband's childhood copy of Mr Galliano's Circus saying how much I loved this story, and I read a few pages.

I got as far as Lotta introducing her pack of performing dogs "This one's N----r, this one's Darkie..." and snapped it shut. It's not ok. I can't give that to a child.

But it's a change that could easily be made so that children today can still enjoy the story. A children's book is a commercial publication or it's a historical relic. Sometimes it can't be both.

Arguably they should be lost to children though. Or kept as they are for older children to use as a learning tool about history and how things have changed.

It almost whitewashes the past as some sort of ultra wholesale era to remove words in this manner.

The idea that we don't have thousands of books more suitable for our time is nonsense. If you go into any bookshop you have walls full of amazing books.

Why do we need to tie children to our own past out of a sense of misplaced nostalgia.

I think where things are editted or removed there should be a very firm notice that it is no longer as originally intended but we should have old versions available to us still - not just old second hand copies either. Literary history and burning of books tells us that erasing history is unacceptable.

It's like statues. I don't think we should destroy ones we don't like. Move them to other places and/or provide an explanation of its significance - including the bad. And build new statues to heard the things we now feel important. But don't erase it. That erasure risks overly sanitising things. We need an understanding of why those things were bad too. We need visibility of the bad in order to do that and prevent us slipping in the future back to that out of some kind of backlash or ignorance of the past. This is the concept that holocaust remembrance is built on: visibility of the bad - we don't erase Nazis and the role of society as a whole which facilitated it - as part of that. We need to see how ingrained into society it was and how their peers viewed them as heroic and enabled if not supported and encouraged unacceptable behaviour.

LampHat · 19/02/2023 09:22

Maybe they could do that fucker David Walliams next.

Boomboom22 · 19/02/2023 09:23

Because they can't accept a female could be formidable or act in an aggressive way so this must be a trans woman or trans man to fit their extreme view of gender stereotypes? I say either tw or tm as I think the ideology is so sexist I doesn't see the inconsistencies of only a man in drag who could be aggressive playing trunchbull or a tm who doesn't conform to being sweet like miss honey, as they are no longer female like.

IneffableGenderFairy · 19/02/2023 09:23

I'm still angry with Charlotte Brontë for editing Wuthering Heights, so I don't think I'm ready to process this.

VoodooQualities · 19/02/2023 09:24

Maybe they could do that fucker David Walliams next.

Yeah and Shakespeare, he was a wrong un.

hryllilegur · 19/02/2023 09:25

The thing about Dahl books is that it isn’t just a bit of wording that’s the problem.

The entire plot is often driven by social ideas that just aren’t ok by contemporary standards. It’s not merely calling people fat and ugly, but what is punished and celebrated is often quite uncomfortable.

But, like all of these things, we’ll change some superficial wording and ignore the values and attitudes in the actual story. It’s the words you use that matter, not what you’re trying to say. 🙄

TheGreatATuin · 19/02/2023 09:25

I can agree that there might be a case for removing offensive words from children's books, racist terms as an obvious example, but there is nothing offensive about being female
I'm not willing accept that femaleness is so offensive that children can't even hear the word.

percypig82 · 19/02/2023 09:25

I work in publishing and I seriously doubt half his books would have even been published now! George's Marvellous Medicine was my favourite... the concept of creating an amazing potion made of everything in the house and farm (I'm sure he slipped some animal medication in there if my memory serves me correctly) and giving it to your grandma who eventually disappears into space would have most commissioning editors throwing it straight in the bin! David Walliams' books are a tame attempt at recreating the magic that was Dahl!

With Dahl he gave children credit and held them in high esteem to be able to read his books, manage the concepts and themes he was talking about and enjoy them. There was also little backlash from parents at the time.

I love his books and will be passing down the unedited versions to my little girl. I hope she enjoys them as much as I did.