Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans and losing my mind...

953 replies

bluepetergeneration · 18/02/2023 21:07

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Blister · 19/02/2023 13:31

I'm small and men don't like me, must be the most "I don't care about women" statement I've ever heard. Sounds like you don't care about transmen either who are going to look trans and also be 5ft7 with little muscle mass in the gents. It really seems to matter more how men are going to react. How women are reacting is inconsequential especially since they'll slink away from direct confrontation if they clocked you in the loos instead.
Women are not ways of running away from responsibilities.

BellaAmorosa · 19/02/2023 13:32

NotHavingIt · 19/02/2023 13:22

If you want positive and meaningful change then you have to take as many people with you as you can. I don't position men or males as being necessarily hostile or suspect or the enemy, even as I very much appreciate the need, and the reasons, for single sex spaces, services and categories.

We need men as well as women to speak up and find in favour of common sense reality.

Yes, we do need to take as many people as possible with us. We must not compromise on the basics like men are men and women are women, and single sex means single sex. Otherwise what's the point of fighting all this nonsense? Women have to fight for women (and children). It's great to have allies, but not at any price. There are plenty of men, gay men and transsexuals included, who fight on our side without demanding concessions.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 13:34

@BellaAmorosa one caveat though. I believe that if it is deemed in the child’s best interest to break the mother-baby bond, then they are best placed with a woman rather than a man, as a replacement mother. I know this view is probably my more controversial point.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 13:36

Women have to fight for women (and children). It's great to have allies, but not at any price. There are plenty of men, gay men and transsexuals included, who fight on our side without demanding concessions.

Yes. I think @TinselAngel was wise to share DrEm’s piece on forced teaming.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 13:37

TinselAngel · 19/02/2023 13:20

Seems a good opportunity to share Dr Em's article about Forced Teaming

uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/

^^ this

Helleofabore · 19/02/2023 13:38

But no group of males asked women if they could use our toilets. I don’t really care if they transitioned 20 years ago. The answer was always no. But now with the grab of usage, some males still feel they have the right to use our spaces still while they find a solution.

When the reality is permission was never fucking given in the first place.

And supposed ‘support groups’ have been so fucking focused on full on mantra acceptance that they never once did what they ethically should have in the first place. Campaign for third spaces.

And it is very important for every single woman to know, on average a male without testosterone still has a grip strength nearly twice the strength of the average woman.

And a male in the lowest quartile of strength after testosterone is still stronger than 90% of woman.

The ‘I am at risk argument’ is ignorant in the face of this and I don’t support it. So, start the campaign where men say ‘you can pee next to me’. We have suggested this numerous times to numerous posters who post similar posts.

We are assured there are enough transitioned males who are supposedly ready to do.

I have yet to see that campaign come to light.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 19/02/2023 13:38

I know lots of male bodied XY chromosome people who don't do the gender identity thing who are 5'7" or less. If I factor in boys, there are even more.

The idea that males are so violent their loos are dangerous places except to the largest and most muscular of them, and that THEREFORE women should let males into women's loos makes absolutely no sense.

BellaAmorosa · 19/02/2023 13:41

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 13:34

@BellaAmorosa one caveat though. I believe that if it is deemed in the child’s best interest to break the mother-baby bond, then they are best placed with a woman rather than a man, as a replacement mother. I know this view is probably my more controversial point.

No, not controversial to me, as a general policy in the case of a very young child or baby.

nilsmousehammer · 19/02/2023 13:44

These conversations with polite, reasonable, male TS who explain their difficulties and do it all without the shouting, the ranting, the threats and sexual violence and yada yada that we're all so familiar with, have been happening on MN FWR for years.

And yes, anyone compassionate person is going to be aware that for these male people, to reclaim women's spaces and services is going to end the privilege set up years ago for men by men without consulting women. Those men's plight is real, they have been harmed by the rather insane activist years.

But if you've been around the block long enough you start to notice two things.

One is that all of these nice male people always, invariably, have the purpose of asking women to draw a line that excludes other males but includes them in women's groups, spaces, facilities, lives.

Now this has been tried. It was the GRA in fact. A very small number of men who had or were in the process of wholly and entirely transitioning, were given the right by other men (no one bothered to look at whether this worked for women or they agreed, because merely women) to use women's spaces, facilities etc. In fact I believe using those spaces was required as part of proving seriousness of transition.

It has been pushed, and exploited and abused beyond belief, because this only would ever have worked if men were able to respect women. And they can't. And it's now broken beyond repair. The time when this was a usable solution to return to is long, long since gone. It is unworkable. Because you will always have a male like the OP who is realistic about biology, fully transitioned, telling you that no one could ever know they were male. And behind the OP will be other male people, all of whom will claim that they pass whether they do or not, some of them will have beards like Alex, and others be shouting 'call me ma'am' at you. And behind them are males who will tell you that a requirement to 'pass' is false and cruelty, and who are you to gatekeep their womanhood, that it isn't about appearance, that women appear as a whole spectrum, the word salad will be enough to drown in. And behind them will be the one with the sword, or the one wanting to raid the sanpro bin to put the tampons up their bums, and the one who wants to help little girls fit their tampons, and the ones who will photograph themselves wanking on the toilet next to you, and the ones who will tell you they're coming in, you can't stop them, and they'll rape/kill you if you look at them wrong.

They will all use the OP's words, claims and access to leverage their own. The very sad truth is, no gatekeeping of some males and not others is possible. There are no cards issued, no gatekeeping on the doors, if it is any single one male then it is all of them.

Females can only have female only, accessible spaces if no male at all is ever permitted to use them and males are capable of respecting female need, inclusion and access equally to their own.

And that brings me to the second thing that every nice TS MNetter has shown us here.

They all of them - all - listen to women explaining, the exclusion of females that is inevitable in order to meet unmet male need, why this does not work for women, why women cannot be the cloth to mop up for male human problems. And they all end as the OP has. In gently, even apologetically, informing that they have listened, and their decision is that they will just use women's spaces because they need to and wish to. Daddy has spoken.

And it's always that women will just have to be excluded and subordinated, because a male person is in need and sad and has problems. And good women would put them first anyway.

Now oddly enough, I'm not ok with that.

Hepwo · 19/02/2023 13:44

Using women's toilets is HOW men transition. The act of walking through the door marked women is literally the transition.

Gender doctors make this part of the "treatment" for transsexualism. If a man can get his shit together to start using women's toilets dressed up, then he's "living as a woman" and can have a certificate.

It's an essential part of the performance.

Watermonster · 19/02/2023 13:46

The Children of Transitioners group have stated clearly to government they believe in reality over ideology- and do not consent to pretending dads are mums
committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16837/pdf/

and will not refer to male parents or boys at school as if they are female, and cannot use mixed sex spaces however males identify:
childrenoftransitioners.org/2021/02/27/how-to-help-children-of-transitioners/

GailBlancheViola · 19/02/2023 13:46

When the reality is permission was never fucking given in the first place.

No we weren't fucking asked it was all decided on our behalf by, what a surprise, men who made damn sure they protected their privileges such as hereditary titles, estates and men only clubs. Trust men to sort this out? Like hell.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 19/02/2023 13:57

The OP reveals so clearly the underlying cruelty of trans ideology. If a dysphoria about a person's body (wrt sex, weight, limbs, anything) is real, the treatment should be helping them to reconnect with reality and accept themselves as they are. In some cases this will mean accepting their own homosexuality. And then helping them to happiness, if possible.

But playing along with the illness and pretending that some magic concept called 'gender' will square the circle is unkind and dishonest. Even before that starts requiring the removal of women's rights (and in the case of dysphoric girls, women's bodies).

nilsmousehammer · 19/02/2023 14:03

It really is pointless telling me that a male has changed sex and become a woman, where at the time telling me and showing me a belief that I have a sex based burden to do what that male wants and privilege them above myself. And above the needs and equality of other women.

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 14:12

'I've been on hormones for over 15 years, my muscle mass has changed, I'm 5'7, and would feel unsafe in a men's bathroom because if someone looked at me and put 2 and 2 together and said 'she's in here because she's one of those trans people!' and then was aggressive or attacked me, I wouldn't stand a bloody chance. Even if they didn't put 2 and 2 together, I would feel unsafe standing next to a bunch of men, and I came here in good faith thinking people would understand that (not that that was even the focus of my original post).'

Yes, I do understand feeling unsafe around male people. To the marrow of my fucking bones.

That includes all males. No matter what they look like.

You telling women that you will use their spaces, despite knowing that that will make those women feel unsafe, or will transgress their boundaries, or contravene their religious observances, or is against what they've politely asked for (please don't use women's spaces) or fought for years for (see 'the urinary leash') is fine, though, right?

Justified, even.

Because your safety and comfort, privacy and dignity somehow matter, but those of women don't.

Funny, that.

GailBlancheViola · 19/02/2023 14:12

They all of them - all - listen to women explaining, the exclusion of females that is inevitable in order to meet unmet male need, why this does not work for women, why women cannot be the cloth to mop up for male human problems. And they all end as the OP has. In gently, even apologetically, informing that they have listened, and their decision is that they will just use women's spaces because they need to and wish to. Daddy has spoken.

And it's always that women will just have to be excluded and subordinated, because a male person is in need and sad and has problems. And good women would put them first anyway.

Yes @nilsmousehammer every single time it always comes back to being all about them and how women must just move over, be nice, let them have what they want, it proves time and time again just how women are viewed - a resource to be used and abused at will by men.

GailBlancheViola · 19/02/2023 14:21

Because your safety and comfort, privacy and dignity somehow matter, but those of women don't.

Funny, that.

Isn't it just and this definitely isn't and has never been a male rights agenda, a means to give men exactly what they want at the expense of women, to take away rights, safety, dignity, privacy and comfort from women in order to accommodate male desires, no absolutely not. Yeah, right

Nice of @bluepetergeneration to provide further proof.

MenopausalMe · 19/02/2023 14:28

bluepetergeneration
I’m 5'7

I’m 5’0 and didn't go through male puberty, you’ve got a much better chance than me. I’m on the short side but not unusually short for a woman. How do you think I feel when allowing you in means allowing in the 6’ TW? Height difference between you and the average male you’d encounter in male toilets is less than between you and me

So how do I feel encountering either of you in the ladies toilets? Fucking terrified & by now extremely pissed off is the answer.

Campaign for a third space, we’ll carry on campaigning for womens rights

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 19/02/2023 14:47

Yes, any woman will read 5 foot 7 as 'well above average height'.

BellaAmorosa · 19/02/2023 14:50

Hepwo · 19/02/2023 13:44

Using women's toilets is HOW men transition. The act of walking through the door marked women is literally the transition.

Gender doctors make this part of the "treatment" for transsexualism. If a man can get his shit together to start using women's toilets dressed up, then he's "living as a woman" and can have a certificate.

It's an essential part of the performance.

Precisely. Very wrong, no regard to how women feel about it. And also forms a plank of the constructed sense of entitlement to use women's spaces if they have a GRC.

HopRockers · 19/02/2023 14:52

FFS
Even if they didn't put 2 and 2 together, I would feel unsafe standing next to a bunch of men
Women don't feel safe with men in our spaces - all strange adult human males put us on our guard.

My teen son is currently shorter & lighter than you (& he has hair down most of the way down his back fwiw) - obviously he uses the men's

My gay friend who is extremely slight & actually has been badly beaten in men's toilets by homophobic bastards- uses the men's.

Stay out of women's spaces & live your life.

viques · 19/02/2023 14:57

nilsmousehammer · 19/02/2023 11:00

This can all seem very blunt and harsh, but at this point women are really, really bloody tired .

The toilets thing does matter.

When a male person walks in, some female people have to walk out. They do. They have no choice. So the male person can have their choice, some female people have to lose access altogether.

Women are being asked to empathise with a male person who is afraid to use their sex based facilities, to shelter and provide for that male person's needs, to be protective and sympathetic and facilitate their right to inclusion.

And this means not sheltering and providing for the female people who have just had to leave with no other alternative provision to choose from. They are being asked not to be equally protective and sympathetic to those female people or facilitate their right to inclusion.

They are being asked to choose, and to choose the male person. And to put the male person's plight above that of females. And that is based on the belief that male people matter more than female people, and the job of female people is to care for male people in need above themselves.

I'm sorry, but if I have to choose, I'm choosing the women. They aren't able to pick between the really scary option and the less scary option: they just don't get an option at all if I prioritise the male person. That's not right. It's not ok. I'm not prepared to break down women's loss of acccess in society caused by unmet male need into 'well those women in that situation don't matter so much' and 'yeah those women are worth fighting for'.

We have women being raped in prisons by male people who will tell you in much detail how terrifying and distressing it is to be in the men's provision and why they must have access to the female space. (And oh whoops, bit of a female body count of victims, but shhh.) We have women living in life threatening relationships because of male people in female refuges with many sad and upsetting stories about their hardships and need to be in the female space. We have marginalised, vulnerable women who are losing access to any public space or society to enable male people to be safer and happier. None of this is ok .

And when a male person says 'well what else can I do?' it is really saying, 'I am justified in costing women worse consequences because they are only women'. Third spaces are the answer, we badly need third spaces. But it's not the job of biological females to embrace their subordination and exclusion until they get here so that male humans don't have to suffer like they do.

This, again and again and again.

Jellycatspyjamas · 19/02/2023 15:14

I also said that I think it is better for hard to place children to have a permanent home with men than to be in residential or foster care. So, - babies. No. Babies and small children need a mother. I am not being absolute about men adopting in all cases and I don’t think the sexual orientation of the parents is relevant.

What do you think a mother offers a baby or small child that a father can’t? What does that say for men raising babies following maternal death in childbirth?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 19/02/2023 15:20

thedancingbear · 19/02/2023 12:50

Amongst other, your 9.40 post:

'I don’t think men should be allowed to adopt babies.'

For the record, yes, you and I agree that trans women are men.

You didn't used to. What changed your mind?

I clearly remember you arguing that transwomen had a right to participate in women's hockey.

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 15:24

This can all seem very blunt and harsh, but at this point women are really, really bloody tired

Oh, my fuck, are we ever.

Enough. Enough performing 'be kind'. Enough trying to frame things to avoid hurt feelings.

Just let women have their spaces to themselves. That's all. It's not much to ask.

Swipe left for the next trending thread