Trans and losing my mind...

[bluepetergeneration]

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

I believe that many of us are working on that 'long term strategy' and so many before us have been working even longer.

We say no to this poster. Because our experience has shown the harm that allowing this poster to continue will bring. There have been posters, thankfully very few, who started just like that and when people kept saying 'no' to their demand (and they ended up demands) that they be still allowed in, while others were not, they got abusive in the end.

It is not kind to let a person believe that they are welcome and different, when the reality is that in the end they will need to be excluded too. How is that kind?

How is it ethical to start a campaign knowing that the end result will be that those people you started the campaign with will be excluded from the end result?

Maybe this is that disconnect I am trying to articulate.

This could go on all day and still not reach anything approaching harmony or understanding. So, I'm out of this particular discussion for now.

To a large extent, I think we are where we are because a law was passed in 2004 which made the assumption that society could not or would not accept men who wanted to present in a feminine way.

bing! 💡

imagine if in 2004 law makers had gone with ‘some men wear frocks, get over it’?

that is essentially the spirit of including gender reassignment in the EA protected characteristics as I see it

Because they said so in their post. They absolutely understand that we need single sex spaces, otherwise they wouldn't try and find an alternative, would they? Why would they be using disabled toilets?

It really is the height of enough when we have spent page after page explaining to the op why women don't want men in their spaces, and have an entire board dedicated to it, on which a transwoman is saying I totally understand everything you're saying, and you can still turn round and claim they probably just don't get it!!!

There is NO compromise with this issue.
How can there be?
Compromise means, in this instance, letting the "right" men into women's spaces. The "good" ones. The "real trans" ones.

They are all still men.
It still means that the space is no longer single sex.

Sometimes the answer is just NO.
When a child screams and demands to jump off a mountain because they want to fly, you don't compromise with them by letting them jump a "little bit". You say no. Sometimes answers have to be harsh and final.

People don't like women saying no. We are taught from an early age to compromise and find a middle ground. But in this case, there IS no middle ground.

Men do not belong in women's spaces. I don't care what inner feelings they have, what surgeries they may or may not have had, what hormones they take, how long their hair is, how good their makeup and clothes are, how high their voice is, how long they have identified as female, what their driving license or birth certificate says, what legal fictions have been issues to them by the government.
SEX is real.
Anything else is just playing dress up.
Males remain males, they are not women, they don't belong with women, and there is NO compromise.
This time, the answer is just NO.

@HootyMcboob76 that is it in a nutshell.

I never even got an answer to this. Massively hurt, betrayed, etc. It takes all of us just as long to type as you, but you seem to only put value on your time. And some of us don't have your massive intellectual advantages, Dr Scratched. It might take us a lot of effort. Instead of sneering at any MNers on the board who speak English as a second language (which was very xenophobic btw), what about making your posts accessible? You could at least tell me if I was on the right track.

After immense cognitive effort to try and understand, I and my poor English skills wonder if what you, scratchedbymycat are trying to communicate is... your personal conviction that women cannot regain our rights to single-sex spaces?

You think that we are going to be forced to accept something that enshrines our status as second-class citizens, and you think that pragmatically, we need to realise that so we can get some input on the details?

Are you trying to communicate that having a negotiated surrender with terms will work out better for women than fighting and losing the battle, because the victor would take all?

Ah yes. I remember.

You dismissed the abusive nature of the person who wrote about their success in Navaro media about coercing their mother . The one where the child threatened the mother with being ostracised from her community and friends.

And then accused me of making things up while declaring that the 'law believes that males can change sex'. When the law is limited and when tested to the limits, the guidance states that exceptions are there to be used. So, no. The law did not do what you tried to say it did.

And you never did clear up the inconsistencies in your posts.

Exact same picking at non existent nit from same poster.

I am attempting to work out what posters are saying, what they think they are saying, and pointing out where there is disconnections.

If you think it is a 'non-existent nit', well, that is obviously an issue for you to resolve.

If you had actually read this thread, you will see it is only non-existent in one posters mind and that was scratched. Multiple posters responding shows it is well in existence and is having a feast.

Cognitive dissonance again innit?

’women should be allowed single sex spaces’

’women should show humanity to poor vulnerable men’

’you saying no to men is making me personally very uncomfortable, but I definitely believe women should be allowed to say no’

’ow, my head hurts, I have to leave the thread’

I believe the phrase ‘you do you’ may be helpful to some of the posters here. Trying to control the actions of other women using shame is never gonna make you popular

’you saying no to men is making me personally very uncomfortable, but I definitely believe women should be allowed to say no’

Yes it's this.

Sometimes I think these posters are really genderists in disguise, but in this case, probably not.

I really think this poster would like us to be able to say no to men, but in a way that those men find acceptable and palatable. And then they'll agree.

Honestly. Just give me those bloody words, and I'll shout them from the rooftops.

Found the nit. Stop erasing its existence!

Omg Helle, you’re trying to reactivate the same thing again with me now.

And then accused me of making things up while declaring that the 'law believes that males can change sex'.

For the record, I did not at any point declare / say / write that. And that’s a perfect example of your tactic to silence women you don’t agree with on this board.

You dismissed the abusive nature of the person who wrote about their success in Navaro media about coercing their mother . The one where the child threatened the mother with being ostracised from her community and friends.

No - I disagreed with your view that the trans person and their sibling were abusive, coercive or threatening, and pointed out the hypocrisy of you positioning them in that way based on the article.

Again, perfect demonstration of your tactic of misrepresentation and making stuff up that didn’t happen.

hey Bernard! That sounds like lyrics coming along nicely there.

But yes, in all of that my interpretation was:

"You are all rude and not nice. I agree with you, but you are all rude and not nice. And don't seem to understand."

"No, I am not going to try to articulate the finer nuances of what I am saying. Your questions are unanswerable and you are just not nice."

Me. I'm happy to just sit here saying 'no' all day long.

No works for me

No I am not trying to reactive it again.

I am pointing out that you have come here and made accusations as you did on another thread.

And you don't think that you post on this thread was attempting to 'shame' others? And you call it hypocritical?

So, no. I am not starting it again. You made the accusation about me on this thread and I responded to it.

Me too. It’s short, sharp and a complete sentence.

The wheels on the bus go round and round,
Round and round, round and round.
The wheels on the bus go round and round,
All day long.

The mummies on the bus go No, No, No
No, no, no,
The mummies on the bus go no, no, no
All day long.

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision

I really don't want to leave you hanging, and I haven't intentionally avoided answering a question, but I don't think I know exactly what you're asking or want from me?

I suspect you're trying to lure me into a statement that you can then say "ah, you see ...". Me saying that though goes against my better judgement because inferences are not always accurate or fair. I would normally not say that sort of thing, but, you've "been honest", so I will as well.

Honestly, I believe womens spaces have to be single sex, that the EA legislation needs clarifying and maybe even reinforcing. Lots more. But that's the end result, and not what I got flamed for. (Or maybe it was actually, because the responses have inferred I am not supportive of this issue at all. Which is not true, but ...)

I said upthread about the painful progress towards achieving the end result (my post reffing soldier analogy) and @NotHavingIt has also said things I totally agree with, so factor all that into my answer too. I also listed things I personally practically do myself.

I don't see this as a step by step checklist process where, 'tick', x has been achieved then we move onto the next phase. It's way more fluid and dynamic than that. I don't have a simple neat answer for you. I change my own mind about what I am going to do next all the time, depending on what happens.

Finally, I am not an abusive person. I have worked with victims of abuse though, and I have experienced abuse myself. These are the experiences that led me to where I am now.

If we're being honest (and this is the genuinely the first time I've said anything that I would consider inflammatory in this thread, and again, normally I'd not say this) - I think people who level casual accusations of abuse at others are utterly vile.

Haven’t read the whole thread, just the first page, but I would have no issue recognising someone who has gender dysphoria and has surgically transitioned in an attempt to find peace within themselves, as their preferred gender.

There is a world of difference between accepting the rare cases of genuine need in our society, and those who for whatever reason, sexual, narcissism or whatever, feel the need to jump in the bandwagon for their exhibitionist desires.

Unfortunately, until society draws that line, OP will be bundled in with the louder, more obnoxious and toxic men who are determined to dominate this space.

I welcome OP’s honesty and opened, and wish her the best in her quiet struggle against those who would adopt a female identity to fulfil their fantasies, expose themselves, threaten women, or seek softer jail sentences.

It is not a clear cut thing for me. It’s just that ‘woke culture’, ‘cancel culture’ and the army of apologists and ‘equality professionals’ (who likewise are predominantly women) are determined to destroy women and women’s spaces.

I really don't want to leave you hanging, and I haven't intentionally avoided answering a question, but I don't think I know exactly what you're asking or want from me?

I want you to explain how any solution involving the retention of women's spaces can involve anything other than simply that.

how can women say no to men in women's spaces in a way that you, you personally, would approve of? And is effective.

Incidentally, reference to my research background was relevant to the context of the post it appeared in. If you choose to interpret the fact I even mentioned it at all as me sneering at you and others, then that's very much about YOU, not me. Have some self-respect, for gods sake.

Can you answer my question, at all?

how can women say no to men in women's spaces in a way that you, you personally, would approve of? And is effective.

I do know that when confronted with snide sarcastic sneeriness sometimes the best answer is just 'Fuck off'.