Page 30 | Trans and losing my mind...

bluepetergeneration · 2023-02-18T21:07:36+00:00

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that. I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say. I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'. The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is). I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you. Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

NotHavingIt · 22/02/2023 11:21

scratchedbymycat · 22/02/2023 11:13

Bearing in mind women have been doing this for the best part of 10 years.

It doesn't matter how many years women have tried and failed. Or how tired or frustrated we are. For me, it's about how serious we are.

In my previous job, I used to say to people who could not understand why I did what I did, that I had to see myself as a 'soldier' - it's a 'job', not an opt out choice. In doing it, I accepted I had no choice but to keep walking and pushing through no matter what was chucked at me, because the alternative was dire.

The context itself is fluid, and progress will be painfully incremental, maybe not even discernible.

Clear example, what was said about prisons two months ago, now has more weight post Isla Bryson. Some (I suspect most) trans women will have been genuinely horrified at that, and that's a new opportunity to talk and reach understanding. So I don't see it as the same thing over and over again at all.

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Yes, that is how I approach this issue - with the sort of long term strategy ( and mode of operation) that will be required. I've always imagined this will take a couple of decades to truly turn around.

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 11:24

NotHavingIt · 22/02/2023 11:16

The sort of compromise I'm talking about liess in having to accept, in the relatively short term to medium term, that transgender ideology and all of its manifestations and consequences is not going to disappear over-night, or just by saying " No". That is a long term project.

In order to effectively push back I believe you have to truly understand what it is that you are pushing back against (sort of 'knowing your enemy'). How it works; how it operates; the perspectives of those caught up in it - they are human too; how we got here; how has it been operating so far.......and so on

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I don't believe one poster on this thread though thinks this will disappear over-night. And that by us saying 'no' we are going to make it disappear over night.

Scratched is not the only person on this board who has been out actively working and campaigning to have women's sex based rights prioritised against gender. And they are certainly not the only person to have read very deeply about this.

Far from it.

So, what I do not see is how we do not understand what we are pushing back against. Are you telling us that you don't think we truly 'understand'?

If so, why are you saying we don't and are you saying that you do? And if you do, what do you think you see that others do not see?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 22/02/2023 11:25

For the purposes of constructive discussion, please assume that women and men advocating for single-sex spaces understand the thought processes and beliefs of trans activists, and their supporters, back to front and upside down. Some of us are ex-TRAs. Some of us have trans teens, trans siblings, trans exes. Lots of trans friends, too.

Once you've established that as a premise, what is the next step, as you see it?

scratchedbymycat · 22/02/2023 11:25

DameMaud · 22/02/2023 10:40

Wading in here as I've just read this whole thread and find myself taking a bit of an observer stance, as I have found it too tense o engage directly, and fascinating as someone who has grown up around group conflict; My own internal responses to the debated issue (I experienced as a kind of mind tennis) and the dynamics of online exchange is what struck me most. This led me to find this:

www-usr.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/conflict.html

Have you ever noticed how conflict can get blown out of proportion online? What may begin as a small difference of opinion, or misunderstanding, becomes a major issue very quickly. Conflict can be difficult at the best of times, but what is it about online communication that seems to ignite "flaming" and make conflicts more difficult to resolve?

There are a number of reasons to explain why conflict may be heightened online. One is the absence of visual and auditory cues. When we talk to someone in person, we see their facial expressions, their body language, and hear their tone of voice. Someone can say the exact same thing in a number of different ways, and that usually effects how we respond.

For example, someone could shout and shake their finger at you, or they could speak gently and with kindness. They could stand up and tower over you, or they could sit down beside you. How you feel, interpret, and respond to someone's message often depends on how they speak to you, even when it's a difficult message to hear.

In online communications, we have no visual or auditory cues to help us to decipher the intent, meaning, and tone of the messenger. All we have are the words on a computer screen, and how we hear those words in our head. While people who know each other have a better chance at accurately understanding each others? meaning and intentions, even they can have arguments online that they would not have in-person.

Yes. Add to that people joining a thread but missing previous posts. I tried to ignore the unpleasantness, and repeat myself with all this in mind, but god, it's exhausting, and yes, I find it too intense too.

Datun · 22/02/2023 11:27

Not "diplomacy towards TRAS" specifically, but a generally more diplomatic approach overall. As noted, diplomacy only works in talks when someone is open to a similar approach.

I'm glad you've said that. It's the raison d'etre of TRAs to threaten, abuse, and stop women talking. They've no interest in a solution that doesn't give them a hundred percent what they want.

The issue, for me, is that it is not trans activists we have to court favour with so much as public opinion. And to do that you have to show resillience in the face of unreasonable and even abusive behaviour; and you have to continue to show you are open to conciliation. You have to show reasonableness and an ability to emapathise whilst still holding firm to your principles.

The public don't really care about vulnerable women. Otherwise this would have been dealt with at the very beginning.

They only really care when it's got to such an extreme that can't ignore it and outrage kicks in. Like rapists in women's prisons and men competing against women in sport.

And that is what is occupying everybody else, too. The misogyny is so off the scale, no amount of conciliation or diplomacy can frame it any other way.

Not all Trans identified people are activists or self publicists such as Willoughby. It can useful and helpful be able to understand people's under-lying drives and motives when it comes to furthering the cause. And also just to be human and to recognise that humanity in others.

It's transactivists like Willoughby who are causing all the problems, though. And we know what the drives are. Have you read the transwidows threads on this site?

Who wants to be like Owen Jones, forever flaming and inflaming and de-humanising those he disagrees with. Wilfully misrepresenting their position and perspective? (Not suggesting that is what people are necessarily doing here)

there is no misrepresentation going on. They're really isn't.

I totally understand the response you're having.

but Two things. First of all it doesn't work. The public aren't really interested in the painstaking court cases, or having laws tweaked. You'll only get them on side, with a cultural shift. That doesn't happen if they don't know the extent of what's going on.

And secondly, imo, transideology is highly sexist at best and misogynistic at worst.

Even at its most benign, It relies on cementing in detrimental stereotypes, and there is no part of me that wants to compromise over that.

Quite the opposite. I want to campaign against it.

scratchedbymycat · 22/02/2023 11:29

WaityWTF · 22/02/2023 11:16

*I think I've had a taste of what critics refer to.

I can't speak here without having my words turned against me in the most bizarre ways, The response was - and still relentlessly is - to cast me as the kind of person this thread can't abide, and to do so in terms ( quoted twice in previous posts) that are offensive to anyone engaged in this topic. I think they are calculatedly offensive, with the intention of silencing and ridiculing. *

The only surprise here is that it’s a surprise to you that this happened.

This board is dogmatic. Stray from the dogma in any way and it will turn on you.

Tell me you think it's an echo chamber without saying echo chamber ... 😂😂😂

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

OldCrone · 22/02/2023 11:30

BonfireLady · 22/02/2023 10:03

@Sugarfree23 I agree re the hospital ward issue and also men "owning" standing up for themselves that wearing a dress and being a man should be acceptable. It comes down to personal taste and preference. As women we have so much freedom in what we can wear (in the UK, less so in some countries e.g. where there are strict religious rules).

I wonder if the solution to help trans women (men who want to dress in a "female way") feel more safe in male hospital wards is that they should be considered for a side room. This is similar to the hidden disabilities support for someone with autism if that person can't cope with the noise on the ward (not all autistic people need this reasonable adjustment). Obviously the reasons behind the need for the reasonable adjustment are completely different but I would happily support it. I'm a mum of an autistic child and I've seen the difference that reasonable adjustments can make.

This way, everyone is in a ward for their biological sex and any trans woman who feels vulnerable on the men's ward (or trans man who feels vulnerable on the women's ward) can be supported. In the mean time trans women can campaign for acceptance in wearing whatever they choose.

If this is combined with proper mental health support for gender dysphoria, which should either help people understand and accept their own body as is (or as a last resort choosing surgery) it would be a huge help I believe.

Above all it would achieve the outcome of safe access to single sex spaces for women (while also supporting a minority population to feel safe).

In the mean time trans women can campaign for acceptance in wearing whatever they choose.

To a large extent, I think we are where we are because a law was passed in 2004 which made the assumption that society could not or would not accept men who wanted to present in a feminine way.

The law was based on the assumption that it was better that a such a man disguised himself convincingly enough as a woman, and that this person's true sex should not be disclosed to most of the people with whom he interacted.

Everything else follows from this.

If instead same-sex marriage had been legalised alongside a law which said that people shouldn't be discriminated against if they chose to present in a non-standard way for someone of their sex, we'd be in a much better place now.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 22/02/2023 11:30

Yes. Add to that people joining a thread but missing previous posts. I tried to ignore the unpleasantness, and repeat myself with all this in mind, but god, it's exhausting, and yes, I find it too intense too.

I have read ALL this thread. I read all of it before I posted back on page 4-5(?) and I have read all of it since. So had @Happylittlechicken

At the risk, nay certainty, of personal repetition, repeating yourself has been the problem.

If it didn't make sense to your audience the first time, saying it again in exactly the same way the second time won't either.

NotHavingIt · 22/02/2023 11:32

DialSquare · 22/02/2023 11:13

Not all Trans identified people are activists or self publicists such as Willoughby. It can useful and helpful be able to understand people's under-lying drives and motives when it comes to furthering the cause. And also just to be human and to recognise that humanity in others.

But as I said upthread, if they are males using female single sex spaces, it makes them no better than the TRAs. How can they say they agree with us and then use our spaces knowing we are totally against it?

Understanding and showing humanity doesn't mean that we have to accept males in womens' spaces; but in the short term that is exactly where were are wheher we like it or not. The question is - how do you effectively go about turning this around and pushing it back. Just saying " No" in a determined voice is going to be enough. You have to have a long term strategy.

NotHavingIt · 22/02/2023 11:33

just saying " no" is not going to be enough.

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 11:33

scratchedbymycat · 22/02/2023 11:29

Tell me you think it's an echo chamber without saying echo chamber ... 😂😂😂

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

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And you wonder why you get the reaction you do.

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 11:33

NotHavingIt · 22/02/2023 11:33

just saying " no" is not going to be enough.

But who is just saying 'no'?

HereForTheFreeLunch · 22/02/2023 11:35

understanding and showing humanity goes both ways. I don't see anyone extending this to women.

Sick, disabled, traumatised... No worries, I will still step in your spaces.

Where's the care for women? When push comes to shove it is still men pushing women out at their sweet will (even when they claim to have the best intentions)

Happylittlechicken · 22/02/2023 11:37

Go on @NotHavingIt do tell us where the gender ideologists are showing “Understanding and showing humanity” or is that what they’re calling death abuse rape threats these days?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 22/02/2023 11:39

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 11:33

But who is just saying 'no'?

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Snow is. Just said "no" to considering women.

scratchedbymycat · 22/02/2023 11:39

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 22/02/2023 11:25

For the purposes of constructive discussion, please assume that women and men advocating for single-sex spaces understand the thought processes and beliefs of trans activists, and their supporters, back to front and upside down. Some of us are ex-TRAs. Some of us have trans teens, trans siblings, trans exes. Lots of trans friends, too.

Once you've established that as a premise, what is the next step, as you see it?

How does a TRA become an ex-TRA?

If they can become an ex-TRA, why is it inconceivable that others become 'ex' as well?

How does a trans women with a GRC who believes that they have a right to a single sex space (like the OP), become a trans woman with a GRC who understands that assumption of that right is harmful to women and girls?

I know part of the answer to the above: NOT by coming onto the FWR section of MN, that's for sure.

OldCrone · 22/02/2023 11:39

NotHavingIt · 22/02/2023 11:32

Understanding and showing humanity doesn't mean that we have to accept males in womens' spaces; but in the short term that is exactly where were are wheher we like it or not. The question is - how do you effectively go about turning this around and pushing it back. Just saying " No" in a determined voice is going to be enough. You have to have a long term strategy.

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You say you've been here for years, but your posts imply that you haven't a clue about what women have been doing over the last few years.

scratchedbymycat · 22/02/2023 11:42

Good luck to you all. 👋

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 11:42

NotHavingIt · 22/02/2023 11:33

just saying " no" is not going to be enough.

I do keep pushing for clarity from you NotHavingIt because it does seem like there is a misconception about the knowledge and the experience of most of the posters on this thread.

I tried to articulate it in another post, but I obviously didn't get the message across.

Who is 'just saying 'no' '?

"And to do that you have to show resillience in the face of unreasonable and even abusive behaviour; and you have to continue to show you are open to conciliation. You have to show reasonableness and an ability to emapathise whilst still holding firm to your principles."

How many posters on this thread have 'just said 'no' ' without giving some clear explanations as to why? And some very insightful posts into the history.

And actually women have shown resilience. They are saying 'no' while still asking for discussion, still offering to sit down at committee hearings, still actively campaigning. They turn up to events despite the threats to their personal safety.

Empathy does not mean that you don't push back when someone has just posted that they will still ignore women's boundaries. Maybe that is where the disconnect lies.

Is that what you believe is empathy? That this OP should not have been told by women that they were not listening and were not welcome to just continue to do what they have done?

OldCrone · 22/02/2023 11:42

scratchedbymycat · 22/02/2023 11:39

How does a TRA become an ex-TRA?

If they can become an ex-TRA, why is it inconceivable that others become 'ex' as well?

How does a trans women with a GRC who believes that they have a right to a single sex space (like the OP), become a trans woman with a GRC who understands that assumption of that right is harmful to women and girls?

I know part of the answer to the above: NOT by coming onto the FWR section of MN, that's for sure.

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They could start by actually listening to us.

This thread is a good place to start.
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

ArghRainAgain · 22/02/2023 11:44

I think that gender ideology is ultimately responsible for muddying the waters in this issue.

The reason India and other men feel able to use women’s spaces like toilets is because they think they ARE women. I couldn’t believe it when I watched India on national TV proclaim that he is “a biological woman”.

If that could be addressed it becomes crystal clear who can access women’s spaces (ie only actual women).

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 22/02/2023 11:44

scratchedbymycat · 22/02/2023 11:39

How does a TRA become an ex-TRA?

If they can become an ex-TRA, why is it inconceivable that others become 'ex' as well?

How does a trans women with a GRC who believes that they have a right to a single sex space (like the OP), become a trans woman with a GRC who understands that assumption of that right is harmful to women and girls?

I know part of the answer to the above: NOT by coming onto the FWR section of MN, that's for sure.

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How does a TRA become an ex-TRA?

Coming on mumsnet and FWR had rather a great deal to do with it. Also growing out of being a doormat, and realising that women aren't on this earth to serve men, so why are women's issues always put in second place. I'm not religious and I don't believe I was put here to be Adam's helpmeet. Even if he changes his name.

NotHavingIt · 22/02/2023 11:44

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 11:24

I don't believe one poster on this thread though thinks this will disappear over-night. And that by us saying 'no' we are going to make it disappear over night.

Scratched is not the only person on this board who has been out actively working and campaigning to have women's sex based rights prioritised against gender. And they are certainly not the only person to have read very deeply about this.

Far from it.

So, what I do not see is how we do not understand what we are pushing back against. Are you telling us that you don't think we truly 'understand'?

If so, why are you saying we don't and are you saying that you do? And if you do, what do you think you see that others do not see?

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As I see it a number of people have misinterpreted others' intention and desire and have suggested that they are "happy to have some men in women's spaces", " centering men", and so on, when that is simply not the case.

This has arisen because of differing approaches to a trans identified person posting saying that whilst they used women's toilets when they felt they had no other choice they were critical of genderism and supportive of women.

Someone posted in good faith ( I believed them - on this occasion) and all some could do was be belligerent towards them and dissect, in a hostile way, some of their life choices and decisions. Whether or not I agree with surrogacy or trans people having children was not the main point on this occasion.

I think it a shame when someone tries to engage as honestly as possible that they end up feeling that they are not welcome to contribute.

Happylittlechicken · 22/02/2023 11:45

How does a TRA become an ex-TRA?

by growing up. I was en route to becoming a TRA until I got told to educate myself after a small innocent error. I did. It did not work out as expected. I’m now fully team woman. It’s why I do understand the TRA tactics. I fully comprehend their methods, including, tone policing, appeals to emotions, ad hominem attacks, squirrels, sealioning, sock puppeting, accusations, threats.

NotHavingIt · 22/02/2023 11:47

OldCrone · 22/02/2023 11:39

You say you've been here for years, but your posts imply that you haven't a clue about what women have been doing over the last few years.

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Wrong again!