Muslim women and single sex spaces

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Hi,

I'm friends with a Muslim man at work. I don't know how strictly observant he is but he's definitely a practicing Muslim; prays 5 times a day, only eats halal, doesn't drink, etc etc. He has a partner (girlfriend I assume?) and they don't live together, so I've concluded he's not a 'casual' Muslim IYSWIM

He seems pretty modern and progressive in terms of understanding neurodiversity and DE&I at work, is happy to call out sexusm and microaggressions including a recent incident where someone used to word trans jokingly. He's a 'good guy'

I'm firmly GC feminist, though not loudly and especially not at work. I heard recently that some of our work loos were changing to gender neutral / mixed sex so I decided to ask him how he felt about this, especially with Muslim women in mind.

His answer, and I'm not sure how deliberate this was I can hear the rolling of 10 000 mumsnet eyes absolutely disengaged with women as having a valid issue and focused on his own issue. He shared that he was fairly happy to share loos as they're self contained, large sink cotaining cubicles. Fair enough, though the 'banks' of cubicles are tucked away behind another door so there is still a sense of privacy once you enter the area, and I'd feel surprised to stumble across a man and slightly unnerved.

We moved on to changing rooms as there are single sex open changing rooms with showers at work too. His absolute focus was on how as a Muslim he considers his whole body from knees to elbows to neck to be private, and women would be likewise except to ankles and wrists. He is very uncomfortable showing any part of his body to anyone, male or female. He just could not engage with the conversation and acknowledge that for him or for a Muslim woman there was an extra added layer of discomfort being in such a space with people of the opposite sex.

I was really surprised by this answer and just wondered how typical it was.

In summary: if you're Muslim or know a Muslim well enough to have asked, is there no real difference in changing and exposing back and stomach skin in a single sex space vs a mixed sex space?

I tried to push and ask if maybe women were more sensitive to the difference between showing skin in single sex vs mixed sex and he just insisted that for Muslims it was showing skin to anyone that was problematic.

I don't know if he's aware he side stepped my question, and he's been an ally and a helpful sounding board in some sexist behaviour I've experienced, so I was surprised by how this conversation went.

On a personal level I agree completely. However in the public sphere it feels an easier topic for women with millenia long religious beliefs which are well understood by most people.

Its a lot harder to say 'Islam is bollocks compared to the dignity of trans people' than to say 'gender critical beliefs are bollocks', though I'm sure that there are people who think this.

I'm not a fan or religious beliefs at all, but I'm certainly not going to try and impose that on anyone else. However for those who do hold them as something important and central to their being, this is to my mind a clear conflict. I like understanding how people think so I'm interested in how someone I believe is a good guy reconciles conflicting beliefs within his own mind. My conclusion is he doesn't, he manages to sidestep the need to,l.

I often wonder nowadays what will happen to the female only swimming sessions etc in the times of being expected to accept everything. Will they be closed down? No idea.

In my (limited) experience, they will close if the attendance numbers fall. The law allows for female only sessions as a ‘proportionate means towards a legitimate aim’ but if the ‘legitimate aim’ (reaching those community members who will not attend the leisure centre otherwise) fails to materialise, the ‘proportionate means’ will no longer be justifiable.

These sessions are very popular where I am but one male-who-identifies-as-female would cause most of the current attendees to self exclude, meaning the numbers would plummet.

It’s important that women do not self exclude quietly, but at the very least, register their reasons for not attending (ie that female-only is no longer female-only).

Why are you being so aggressive to me?

It is perfectly valid to understand that people who follow a religion will have some beliefs in common.

The bible tells Christians something about eating prawns which some follow and some don't

The Qu'ran has some rules about food too, observant Muslims eat halal but some don't feel the need to follow this strictly and will just avoid pork.

I am not familiar with the rules on bodily privacy and I didn't realise that bodily privacy in single sex spaces was a thing for Muslims, something my friend told me. As well as telling me that Muslims in general like to take a bottle of water to the toilet for washing afterwards.

This is completely different from what you're trying to accuse me of so stop it.

Muslim women aren't supposed to be alone with men, so coming out of a cubicle into washbasin area with man present is going to be an issue.
Women who pray will need single-sex place to wash hands, face, swipe hair, ears, neck to do wudu. You can manage these at a washbasin if only women are present.

The other issues with mixed toilet facilities are common to all women. Embarassment, privacy, menstruation, harassment, exposure, urine spray, recording and spying are concerns for all women and girls.

I think you're being really naive OP. I think he didn't want to discuss it or give his real opinion from a religious perspective because his survival in the workplace is predicated on the fact that he plays down his muslimness and gives PC answers. He doesn't want to get involved and is giving the answers he thinks will be deemed acceptable by most people.

I don't blame him.

I had a similar conversation with an observant Jewish friend recently. Along the lines of conflict where Jewish beliefs, teaching, and practices conflict with trans ideology. He was able to articulate that single sex spaces are necessary for observant Jews, with the obvious caveats that different sects within the Jewish faith would be more restricted than others but it would be a problem nonetheless.

I suspect your colleague is wary of highlighting the conflict between the teachings of his religion and the following of it and increasing workplace wokery. He doesn’t want the issue to become an anti Islam one so is staying out of it (because being a man it’s easier for him to do so).

Thank you for caring enough to make this thread.
Some very anti-Muslim sentiment around that enjoys inconveniencing or embarassing other people for the sake of it.

This too

So many of us are in the same position really just keeping heads down and trying to avoid conflict (although for some of us the conflict is terfery rather than religious beliefs).

Trendy Equity, Diversity and Inclusion policies do not reflect UK Equality Law, which when applied properly acknowledges that the needs associated with one protected characteristic can conflict with the needs associated with another.

I can see why people would think this bit it really didn't feel like it. We've discussed lots of things and I don't think he's the type to say what people want to hear, he's thoughtful and very honest, sometimes to his detriment at work.

Muslim here: yes there is a difference between exposing parts of your body in front of non mahram men v women. Your (a woman’s) private parts (‘awrah’) in front of men are depending on the scholar, everything excluding the hands and face (some say feet aren’t awrah, but some say face are) in front of other women it’s from the navel to the knee.

his answer seems quite a political one, although in Islamic history there is a strong prevent of eunuchs, effeminate men or men with no sexual desire being allowed into strictly women’s spaces

Thanks for your perspective, that's really interesting and I didn't realise that showing private parts was not allowed, I'd assumed that in a female space Muslim women were comfortable eg helping each other with breast feeding, tending to any stitches needed post partum etc. Presumably some Muslim women find a conflict when they have medical needs which might necessitate a female or even a male doctor to observe or touch their private parts- is this something discussed amongst Muslim women?

This.

Regardless of what I personally think.

At work I wouldn't be honest and wouldn't let myself get drawn into a trans arguments.

Just shrug and smile, but it doesnt reflect what I actually think.

He was speaking for himself and gave you his answer. Accept it.

The issue - which you're still choosing not to see - is that you're expecting your 'friend' to express an opinion that would support your political view. You are evidently disappointed in his refusal to be drawn into that - in your own words you "pushed" before acknowledging that you didn't want to "hound" him.

Much has been written about the labour of minorities to have to educate, inform, answer questions - it doesn't need to be repeated here. But if my statement came off as aggressive, then perhaps you should consider how exhausting it is for Muslims (in this case) to have the "right" view on all things.

Muslim men especially often have to worry in western society about not being seen as aggressive, bullish, conservative, narrow minded, misogynistic, transphobic etc. Can you understand why he didn't want to get drawn into the debate - if he gives one answer it would be considered transphobic, if he gives another then somehow he is ignoring the needs of Muslim womem?

He gave an answer - you decided it wasn't good enough. And then you're complaining that posts that point this out are "aggressive". I am sure you think you're educating yourself by asking him questions but some wider reading around the burden this places on minoritised people/communities wouldn't be a bad idea.

But your post does come across aggressive. Other people have managed to say much the same in more pleasant tones.

Look up the countless texts written about minoritised communities always having to be "nice" or sensitive to the feelings of the majority. Just Google "white tears/white fragility etc." to get an idea of how tiring this is.

OP's colleague dealt with the question politely but it wasn't enough for OP. Can you see how exhausting it is?

For those who really are serious about hearing a POV from Muslim women about being caught between Islamophonia and misogyny, I recommend this:

www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/11/19/opinion/muslim-women-sexism-violence.amp.html

Yes, it bothers me that religious women are being used to justify our need for safe spaces. There are situations in which women need safe and private spaces, these should be provided irrespective of individual customs and habits.

Exhausting for who, her friend or you?

I think once you start finding out about gender ideology the issues all seems so obvious. On here we are talking with like minded people and even those who disagree are engaging with the topic. In the wider world a lot of people are not and are vaguely influenced by what they've read - in particular the guardian (!) - it's all 'be kind'. People just assume everything is rational and there must be some reasonable reason for transwomen to be treated as women in all circumstances. I recently broached with the subject with my (intelligent, caring, politically aware) mum and she amazed me by saying she didn't think Eddie Izzard would behave threateningly in a female toilet so it was ok!

I don't think it's relevant that this man is a Muslim. It's simply that you expected him to say something in particular based on what you know of him and he didn't. Maybe your conversation will have sparked something in his mind and in a few months he'll surprise you by starting a conversation because he has researched and now understands what you were getting at.

I'm planning to unleash Helen Joyce on my mum and see where that leads!

As you may know, the Hampstead Ladies pond in London is now mixed-sex, in addition to the already-existing mixed-sex pond. So there is a Men's Pond, a Mixed-Sex Pond and a Mixed-Sex (formerly Ladies') Pond.

The most recent campaign to make the last pond ladies' only again included a muslim woman and her daughter among the organisers, and the trans activists hit out at the mother in a most creepy manner. Among other things, one described multiple different, escalating levels of sexual activity, and asked which level of sexual activity they could engage in, in front of her child at the Pond.

I'm not sure what point they thought they were making. What kind of mind starts describing stages of sexual activity, in order to ask whether they can engage in it in front of children?

“His absolute focus was on how as a Muslim he considers his whole body from knees to elbows to neck to be private, and women would be likewise except to ankles and wrists. He is very uncomfortable showing any part of his body to anyone, male or female.”

I have heard exactly this from Muslim friends. The modesty rules apply in same sex company to a lesser extent but they still apply, no being completely naked as a man amongst men or a woman amongst women. I was told the same applied, knees and elbows to neck covered in single sex spaces for men and women.

As a Muslim the rule I observe about bodily coverings is that both men and women should cover their body in front of both sexes unless it's for medical reasons. Therefore, if you need to expose certain parts of your body to a doctor than that is allowed but aside from that, modesty states covering from either sex.

This thread has a transcript of these questions via twitter.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4619604-let-women-swim?page=3

My friend gave an answer I wasn't expecting so I left it there snd came somewhere entirely different to get other opinions. How exactly is that exhausting for him?

Everyone on this thread has an option whether to engage or not.

You'll have to take my word for it that I'm speaking the truth when I said that he's explicitly told me in as many words that he is always open to questions about his faith or anything else - he likes discussing things with people who listen to and respect his answers, which I did.

We don't evolve if all conversations go 'what do you think about X?', 'I think it is good', 'ok'

I enjoy discussions where you each probe boundaries and offer viewpoints and reasoning the other person hadn't considered, and I know my friend does too. I was sensitive enough to take the unexpected answer he gave at face value and come elsewhere to ask if his viewpoint was typical/expected to others.