Muslim women and single sex spaces

[BacktoSlack]

Hi,

I'm friends with a Muslim man at work. I don't know how strictly observant he is but he's definitely a practicing Muslim; prays 5 times a day, only eats halal, doesn't drink, etc etc. He has a partner (girlfriend I assume?) and they don't live together, so I've concluded he's not a 'casual' Muslim IYSWIM

He seems pretty modern and progressive in terms of understanding neurodiversity and DE&I at work, is happy to call out sexusm and microaggressions including a recent incident where someone used to word trans jokingly. He's a 'good guy'

I'm firmly GC feminist, though not loudly and especially not at work. I heard recently that some of our work loos were changing to gender neutral / mixed sex so I decided to ask him how he felt about this, especially with Muslim women in mind.

His answer, and I'm not sure how deliberate this was I can hear the rolling of 10 000 mumsnet eyes absolutely disengaged with women as having a valid issue and focused on his own issue. He shared that he was fairly happy to share loos as they're self contained, large sink cotaining cubicles. Fair enough, though the 'banks' of cubicles are tucked away behind another door so there is still a sense of privacy once you enter the area, and I'd feel surprised to stumble across a man and slightly unnerved.

We moved on to changing rooms as there are single sex open changing rooms with showers at work too. His absolute focus was on how as a Muslim he considers his whole body from knees to elbows to neck to be private, and women would be likewise except to ankles and wrists. He is very uncomfortable showing any part of his body to anyone, male or female. He just could not engage with the conversation and acknowledge that for him or for a Muslim woman there was an extra added layer of discomfort being in such a space with people of the opposite sex.

I was really surprised by this answer and just wondered how typical it was.

In summary: if you're Muslim or know a Muslim well enough to have asked, is there no real difference in changing and exposing back and stomach skin in a single sex space vs a mixed sex space?

I tried to push and ask if maybe women were more sensitive to the difference between showing skin in single sex vs mixed sex and he just insisted that for Muslims it was showing skin to anyone that was problematic.

I don't know if he's aware he side stepped my question, and he's been an ally and a helpful sounding board in some sexist behaviour I've experienced, so I was surprised by how this conversation went.

Thanks for your reply, I didn't realise this before my conversation, and I'm glad I do now.

As above you can either believe or not that he's invited, unasked, me to ask him any questions I have about his faith. His involvement in the religious network sees him regularly posting on company chat etc about eg Ramadan and inviting others to post any questions they have.

You effectively accused me of racism and you know it, that's what i was referring to when I said you were being aggressive.

If you want to put your own take on my report of the conversation and assume I was hassling some poor bloke who wants to be left alone then feel free, thats your perogative. I don't ask these kinds of questions of anyone else because I understand white fragility etc and don't want to piss people off, but this guy has invited me in.

I'll read your link, thanks for posting it.

I suspect your colleague is wary of highlighting the conflict between the teachings of his religion and the following of it and increasing workplace wokery. He doesn’t want the issue to become an anti Islam one so is staying out of it (because being a man it’s easier for him to do so).

Absolutely this. I'm Jewish, I and my fellow Jews have been targeted for all sorts of nonsenses. Too right I wouldn't want aspects of my religion that are compassionate and respectful targeted as transphobic because they do not support the ideology of transgenderism.

The discussion and the OP's questions do not seem to me at all disrespectful, not her attempt to find more understanding by asking here.

He is a Muslim MAN, that’s the key part
However, you can’t assume he speaks for all Muslims, men or otherwise

Interestingly your friend shows the exact response of Adrian Chiles. Not Muslim but both men. Adrian thinks about his own discomfort and what would be good for him. Which handily works out well as it fits in with what the BBC anre doing to their loos. He has no clue how women may feel or their specific needs. Doesn’t even register.
amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/commentisfree/2023/feb/15/decades-on-i-am-still-traumatised-by-my-visit-to-the-school-toilets

Tbh I presumed most men wouldn't like the idea either. As if it was your wife in a changing room I don't think if you phrase it that they will see another male body part, or a penis owner (I'm so sorry I don't know how to phrase things inoffensively as I'm out the loop on what we are allowed to describe people as haha) or a person with penis, male whatever the term to see your partners body would be happy. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable with a trans man without surgery getting undressed in front of my partner. Porn is one thing, but boobs In front of him :( nooooo. And not that I know much about Muslims, but I gathered they were covered for all but their husbands, so I think being in the same changing room as male parts would be extremely disrespectful:(

My dh is a Muslim and I think he has said things in the past about it being wrong to see other men naked etc. Muslim men are expected to be modest too. I am surprised that your colleague seemed so insensitive to women needing single sex spaces. I wonder if he was trying to sit on the fence. I am very worried about the erosion of women’s rights due to trans ideology but I do remain neutral at work as I want to stay professional. Perhaps he was doing the same.

There are a lot of reasons he might have answered that way. One might well be that he doesn't want to talk about anything too controversial.

But, it also may be partly how he understood your question. If he was thinking you were asking him for a Muslim POV, he may have been answering from what he considers to be the correct theological, rather than a psychological, perspective.

That could also just be a feature of his personality. Some people are much more likely to think about things in a very technical and concrete, rather than personal, way.

Even people who share a religion and take it seriously think about things in different ways, notice different things, have different experiences.

I also think that not all Muslim men are aware of what is expected of muslim women so they're only aware of their own feelings.

OP, you clearly mean well. But honestly, don't you see that asking whether this is a "typical" viewpoint of Muslims/Muslim men is essentialising and offensive? Would you be cross if your colleague asked if your views were "typical" of women for instance?

Good question. Can't comment on her friend - but I think his polite unwillingness to engage beyond a certain point should be seen in the context of all the extra burden/assumptions/sensitivities he has to carry as a Muslim man.

But as a Muslim woman who is GC and has experienced a lifetime of both misogyny (from Muslim and non-Muslim men) and Islamophobia, I am tired. Yes, I could choose not to engage on threads like this - but I do think it is important to point out how reductive it is to talk on terms of "typical Muslim/typical Muslim male". He was speaking as himself. That should have been enough for OP and yet somehow it isn't.

Not all Muslims think the same! Not all of any religion or sex think the same.

To Be honest I turned off at micro aggression.

I suspect as a Muslim man, he wasn't comfortable discussing anything physical with a woman. (Toilets, undressing, bodies).

This is not a comment about this thread, but a more general point that has irritated me for years: Generalising and essentialising is done by all political groupings now in all sorts of places, but especially in social media and on online sites.

'Feminists' are deemed responsible for every comment some woman makes who has declared herself a feminist in the past, all Tories are held responsible for what one Tory politician has done, all Labour for what one Labour politician has done, all Muslims are held responsible for what a handful of Islamic terrorists have done, all whites are held responsible for any act of racism by a white person, all women are held responsible by incels for them not getting sex on demand, all GC people are held responsible for the tragic murder of a young transgender girl, all men are responsible for those men who rape, and so on.

When I first saw this I thought it was odd as both sexism and racism are, to some extent, based on exactly the type of false generalisations that I have described here, so I naively thought that progressive and feminist writers and thinkers wouldn't do this as much or at all. But it's incredibly common, perhaps somehow hard-wired in human beings.

My concerns here are not the same thing as not accepting that various demographic groups (such as men, whites, upper social classes) have benefited (and still do benefit), as a group, from the ill-treatment of other demographic groups, whether they wish to do so or not. That should be discussed, of course, and fixed, to the extent it can be fixed.

And it is also important to discuss the effect of institutions, laws, religious tenets etc. on various oppressed groups (including women) from a wider angle and in all situations, without seeing this as an essentialising or generalising attack on groups of people who hold certain beliefs or values.

Finally, it is fair to ask, say heads of religions for their views on various religious tenets and what they believe the faithful might be expected to obey. In that sense what the Pope says matters more generally than what some ordinary Catholic person says, but even the Pope can't speak for all the Catholics in the world, so usually it's a good idea to find what the range of opinions among religious people of some type might be.

This might be a silly rant, but I have spent so many years being told that I have to justify the statements of some feminists I have never heard about, and if I don't actively work to demolish their reputation then I am responsible for something vile happening, such as global climate change or the plague etc. The recent fights about whether GC feminists are in bed with the far-right etc. are of this type and so exhausting.

Reminds me of when I was in Morocco and said something to a young Moroccan man about how difficult it must be for a woman to be completely covered up. The women there only had their eyes visible. His response was that it was fine, because men could tell how beautiful a woman was by looking at her eyes.

I think you are really projecting. Everything the OP has said suggests he's interested in talking to others about his views and experiences. Lots of people are, it's not at all uncommon.

This. I'm an Orthodox Jew and often end up having to explain Jewish law and/or practice to colleagues. Judaism and Islam are both religions which determine your daily life in a way that is foreign to people with a standard Western/Christian background. It's also very easy to be so immersed in that religious life and community that most interactions with the outside world are viewed through this lens.

As much as I like educating others, it can be really really hard sometimes to work out how to 'pull out' and explain one facet of a complex, all-encompassing way of life to someone outside the whole system. Especially if asked about it at short notice in person. And I may not always be able to read what the reason is behind the other person's question straight away, or exactly where they are coming from either.

OP, I'm not discounting the fact that your friend/colleague, as a man, may not have the extra sensitivities that a woman would about single sex spaces. But if he is used to explaining things from a 'Muslim' POV then his go to is probably to explain the basic Muslim position that applies across all sexes and leave it at that - because this is the concept he thinks you are asking to be educated about. Not about the specifics of being a Muslim woman faced with a mixed sex toilet or changing area.

separate sections for all people of the same gender

To confirm - you do mean gender, there, rather than sex?

I often wonder nowadays what will happen to the female only swimming sessions etc in the times of being expected to accept everything. Will they be closed down? No idea.

I haven't seen a female only swimming session in 20+ years. They were stopped in the name of equality. The council used to run Women only sessions, Men complained there was no Men only sessions so the Womans only became Adult only.

I agree with the comments up thread, all people deserve dignity and privacy, not just religious people. Although I do think that some religious groups seem to get more respect than others so their word carries more weight, partly because going against them gets shouted out as racism but if the Christian churches say anything they get laughed at and ignored.

I haven't read the whole thread but from a personal perspective, as a muslim woman who has lived in the UK, north africa and the Middle East, I can say that the general consensus is that men and women must cover their "awrah".

For men this "awrah" is the area belly button to knee, and must be covered in front of all men and women except your wife.

For women you should also cover this area around other women and men in their close family. So breastfeeding around other women/close family males is fine. Full nudity - not fine, even amongst women.

Then, due to biological differences, the general consensus among scholars is that women should also cover shoulder to ankle amongst non-family men. Most scholars also believe hair should be covered in the presence of these men.

In practice of course, things are more complicated and mixed. Most Muslim men have culturally been raised to be shy walking around topless in front of women, so would prefer to undress amongst men, even if not exposing private areas.

Equally, in some Muslim cultures (eg morocco) many women are perfectly comfortable with full nudity amongst women, eg in the traditional hammam bathhouse. For others (e.g. Saudi or Bangladesh) this might be considered a huge sin.

So, regarding changing rooms and toilets, single sex facilties are important for eg fixing your scarf in the mirror or drying your hair (which you won't do with men around).

But what your colleague might have been referring to is the fact that many Muslim women are not comfortable with fully-open Changing rooms especially for swimming, and might actually prefer gender-neutral closed cubicles over open-plan single-sex facilities.

I would agree with what other muslim posters have said in that awrah has to be covered in front of everyone except your spouse and the awrah amongst other women is different to that in front of men. We can uncover for necessities like medical care.

Single sex spaces are still hugely important though from the point of view of dignity, privacy etc.
Like many others I really don’t want to share facilities with men for hygiene reasons as well.

Basically we have the same concerns except that we wouldn’t be fully naked in front of women either.

From the men’s side I know my husband would absolutely hate unisex loos. My eldest unfortunately almost fell for all the tra stuff and tried to tell me he wouldn’t mind unisex but from someone who doesn’t even get changed in from of his siblings I took that with a pinch of salt.

The rules in Islam are based on the fact that men can be a threat to women and we don’t have a way of telling which are the nice ones. So good men lower their gaze and stay out of women’s spaces so the bad ones stand out.
I expect my husband and sons to follow the same rules. If the rules apply to everyone from the imam of the masjid to my friend’s husband, no one can take offence right?

OP @BacktoSlack yes you have misunderstood the point from a Muslim woman’s perspective.
Practicing Muslim women won’t be changing in shared female changing rooms full stop. I think this may be what your colleague was trying to explain.

The “males identifying as females” issue would however be significant for example in unisex toilets with gaps above or below cubicles, or unisex changing cubicles with gaps above or below etc. Or perhaps wash basins located in unisex areas with no access to single sex wash facilities.

It would also be relevant for most practicing Muslim women in leisure, social, sport, fitness settings, ie these settings would effectively become unisex and therefore inaccessible (depending on how observant the female was, either with immediate effect or the instant they became aware that a male bodied person was actually attending).

Does this help explain what your colleague said?

Plus OP you are presupposing that your well intentioned male muslim colleague for whom life is more straightforward, has ever considered the difficulties that his fellow females may face. Like many men he may well have never given it any thought at all.

Islam is the least "woke" religion in practice #iran He was probably trying to stay within islamic doctrine but be nice to you. Don't pretend there is an intersection between your feminism and his religion though.

I'm shocked at the exchange! As you say you are good colleagues but as a black woman the most controversial opinion I'd ever express to my mainly white colleagues never strays from my view that Spring is the best season!

That said, even male allies rarely 'get it' completely because it's just at odds with their experience/ world view - for all their empathy there are massive blind spots.