Muslim women and single sex spaces

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Hi,

I'm friends with a Muslim man at work. I don't know how strictly observant he is but he's definitely a practicing Muslim; prays 5 times a day, only eats halal, doesn't drink, etc etc. He has a partner (girlfriend I assume?) and they don't live together, so I've concluded he's not a 'casual' Muslim IYSWIM

He seems pretty modern and progressive in terms of understanding neurodiversity and DE&I at work, is happy to call out sexusm and microaggressions including a recent incident where someone used to word trans jokingly. He's a 'good guy'

I'm firmly GC feminist, though not loudly and especially not at work. I heard recently that some of our work loos were changing to gender neutral / mixed sex so I decided to ask him how he felt about this, especially with Muslim women in mind.

His answer, and I'm not sure how deliberate this was I can hear the rolling of 10 000 mumsnet eyes absolutely disengaged with women as having a valid issue and focused on his own issue. He shared that he was fairly happy to share loos as they're self contained, large sink cotaining cubicles. Fair enough, though the 'banks' of cubicles are tucked away behind another door so there is still a sense of privacy once you enter the area, and I'd feel surprised to stumble across a man and slightly unnerved.

We moved on to changing rooms as there are single sex open changing rooms with showers at work too. His absolute focus was on how as a Muslim he considers his whole body from knees to elbows to neck to be private, and women would be likewise except to ankles and wrists. He is very uncomfortable showing any part of his body to anyone, male or female. He just could not engage with the conversation and acknowledge that for him or for a Muslim woman there was an extra added layer of discomfort being in such a space with people of the opposite sex.

I was really surprised by this answer and just wondered how typical it was.

In summary: if you're Muslim or know a Muslim well enough to have asked, is there no real difference in changing and exposing back and stomach skin in a single sex space vs a mixed sex space?

I tried to push and ask if maybe women were more sensitive to the difference between showing skin in single sex vs mixed sex and he just insisted that for Muslims it was showing skin to anyone that was problematic.

I don't know if he's aware he side stepped my question, and he's been an ally and a helpful sounding board in some sexist behaviour I've experienced, so I was surprised by how this conversation went.

There is no difference for him beacuse he is a man. He will never 'get it'.

A sexist assumption, I think.

It is, however, true that most men have less reason to experience fear in mixed intimate spaces.

Maybe @Transparent2 has it right - he has never felt physically threatened by the mere presence of a member of the opposite sex. This is the hardest thing for the NAMALT types of men I know, that I would find their very existence in some spaces threatening.

It sounds like he just doesn’t understand it’s about feeling threatened for women. A lot of men don’t. If he’s a good try look for an opportunity to explain it.

… if he’s a good GUY

Six years working in a Muslim women’s college in a Muslim country.

My students would not uncover their hair if there was a man in the room (some let a bit of fringe show).

Those who used the gym changed in the cubicles but removed outer clothing in the communal area.

Lots of beauty salons do waxing etc - no problem undressing to underwear for that.

There was a lot of paranoia about men disguising themselves as women to get into women’s spaces - sometimes used as an excuse to discourage women from going out at all.

I wonder if there would be a difference in whether the woman was a man’s own wife, rather than just another Muslim woman.

Perhaps he just didn't want to be drawn into a conversation at work on what can be a contentious issue. It sounds like you had an idea of what you hoped he would say and you're disappointed that he didn't. From his point of view he may not be aware of what your opinion is on the topic and was trying to be diplomatic. It's good to try and discuss these things and I applaud you for starting the conversation but we have to also be respectful if others are wary of discussing the topic.

What do you actually want from this man? He told you how he felt (that he values privacy regardless of whether its sharing space with a man or a woman) - and your refusing to accept it. Don't you think it's a bit of that you're expecting him to be the mouthpiece of all Muslim (men)?

Have you considered that maybe he only spoke for himself because he didn't feel entitled to speak on behalf of all Muslim women? A position far more reasonable than what you seem to want him to take.

I read an interesting article written by a Muslim woman recently. She felt that some Muslim men weren't bothered if women self-excluded from spaces like swimming and sports because they feel women really belong in the home so that's fine. Can't remember where I saw it. Obviously not all Muslim men would think like that, but it was a point I hadn't thought about.

Obviously at work you can't self-exclude from going to the toilet! And it is where a hajib would be adjusted so that's a problem.
I would absolutely hate a mixed-sex work toilet. I think most people do.

I'm not sure its appropriate to quiz your colleagues about their beliefs like that. He set the boundaries of the conversation which you sprung on him, and that's how boundaries work, so why are you surprised?

Not really fair to put a colleague on the spot like that over such a complex and sensitive issue. His view that his body as private, whether in the presence of males or females, is perfectly reasonable.

^ is private

Are you seriously telling us that a woman, you for example, should feel threatened by a colleague in their office if there are enclosed cubicles in the shared toilet? I don't support shared toilets for a very different reason, I. E. Men tend to leave more mess.

Its great if you've never been stalked, harassed or assaulted by a male colleague but its actually a risk in the workplace as well as elsewhere.

"I pushed"
Bloody hell, leave him alone

I don't think religion is a reason to give women more or less private space. I really don't like the idea that religious women somehow deserve more privacy than the rest of us. And I'm not sure why a man who is religious has views that would have more weight than anyone else's views.
Just to be clear, I do think women should have safe private spaces and I also agree with Iwonder08 - the smell and mess in men's toilets is disgusting. I don't want to share toilets with men. Even in my own home I try to keep the men out of my bathroom.

This is a useful insight: shonaghdillon.co.uk/muslim-women-focus-group/

I read an interesting article written by a Muslim woman recently. She felt that some Muslim men weren't bothered if women self-excluded from spaces like swimming and sports because they feel women really belong in the home so that's fine. Can't remember where I saw it. Obviously not all Muslim men would think like that, but it was a point I hadn't thought about.

This is what I hear from the Muslim women friends I know via our local women only gym.

The women-only spaces and sessions are absolutely vital to them as they not only provide health and fitness benefits, but also friendships outside of the home/mosque/local Islamic community.

Obvs a controlling husband (of any/no religion) would much prefer his wife not to have access to spaces where he could not go. There is a reason DV charities advertise support services on the back of cubicle doors in ladies lavs!

A reduction in female-only provision due to genderism/fashionable ideas about unisex things is an excuse that men can from conservative/orthodox religions can use to further isolate their female family members.

I'm not sure in getting your point.
I'm a Muslim and what Islam says and what many Muslims do nowadays can be very different. Also he may have felt uncomfortable with questions but I can't speak on his behalf.
A Muslim female and male would want separate sections for all people of the same gender. That's all there is to it recently.
For someone giving their experience in a Muslim majority country and waxing, it's actually against Islam to show private parts to anyone but the spouse.

I often wonder nowadays what will happen to the female only swimming sessions etc in the times of being expected to accept everything. Will they be closed down? No idea.

Thanks for replies

Should have given more context! He's involved in a religious belief network at work, I'm in a women's network, and he's explicitly told me multiple times he welcomes any opportunity to discuss his faith and answer any question to people curious about learning more. The specific conversation was on the walk home one evening and was a very comfortable scenario for us both I'm sure. He thanked me for asking questions and my sensitivity I the way I asked, so I was most definitely not hounding someone in an unwelcome way

What I wanted from him was his view, as an observant but relatively modern Muslim man, on how to deal with conflicting rights in the context of Muslim women. He has sisters and maybe a girlfriend, he has a mother, so I wondered how he'd feel about them having to share their undressed spaces with male bodies.

I was confused that he seemed unable to engage with the conversation and wondered from MN whether this was something I'd not understood about Muslims and body privacy in general or whether his reaction was unusual.

I didn't want to hound a man I like hence asking here.

I said this recently on here but my husband was out for a run with my daughter recently and some guy wind down his window to shout “compliments” to my daughter. My husband was absolutely shocked even though I have been describing this kind of male behaviour to him for eons. He literally just could not get it until it happened to his daughter. I work with misty men in STEM and that is an almost universal extorting to explain these types of issues to them. They are just brought up to be way more self focussed and to have cultural expectations of women to be deferential to them in subtle sun conscious ways.

So sorry to address your point no they don’t get it even the allies.

"wondered from MN whether this was something I'd not understood about Muslims and body privacy in general or whether his reaction was unusual."

Just swap "Muslims" for any other group and think how ludicrous it sounds. Not all groups act, think, feel, believe the same.

Ie, Something I'd not understood about.. Women? Men? Black people? Jews?

Whether you choose to acknowledge if or not, it is really out of order to expect an individual, however well you get on, to represent an entire group. How is this not obvious?