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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Hannah Barnes book

286 replies

RoyalCorgi · 14/02/2023 12:37

There have been discussions about the book on different threads relating to various interviews with Barnes or pieces about the book. Thought it would be useful to bring everything on to one thread.

This review by Sarah Ditum is excellent and very moving:

unherd.com/2023/02/the-tragedy-of-becoming-a-woman/

Another good one from Suzanne Moore:

suzannemoore.substack.com/p/a-review-of-time-to-think-the-book

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Noleafclover1 · 19/02/2023 06:23

Needmoresleep · 15/02/2023 07:13

Just Googled. It appears that the Guardian has yet to review.

It's book of the week on the Guardian Editions app - a very positive review by Rachel Cooke.

The app is subscription only so I can't link to the article and couldn't find it on the Guardian website or from Googling, which is worrying...

The Hannah Barnes book
Needmoresleep · 19/02/2023 07:22

Noleafclover1 · 19/02/2023 06:23

It's book of the week on the Guardian Editions app - a very positive review by Rachel Cooke.

The app is subscription only so I can't link to the article and couldn't find it on the Guardian website or from Googling, which is worrying...

That is very weird.

An important book is coming out that is likely to be of interest to their readers, whether those readers agree with Barnes or not. They can't not review it, so they restrict access.

I think puberty is much more difficult now. A decade ago I allowed DD to have Fb, or bebo, when leaving primary school though insisted everything went through my email until she was 13. Eventually we sat down and discussed the endless stream of posts from "cool girls" having fun hanging out in shopping malls etc. Phones did not have the same capabilities then, so the posting would have happened from their bedrooms. Ie they were much like everyone else, going to school, doing homework, watching box sets of Friends or playing Farmville, and occasionally handing out. Even then boys were under pressure. DS was exposed to porn aged 11 (he was upset so told me.) Others aged 8. Some of the memes circulating were offensive and cruel.

Fb is out. Now it is TikTok, SnapChat and WhatsApp. Parents cannot control and the social pressures from influencers, filters, smartphone capability, etc have grown immensely. Throw genderwoo, and a girl who does not present in a typically feminine way, has poor social skills, has self-esteem issues and and and, is very likely to feel inadequate or plain "wrong".

(Sport was DDs saviour. Lots of positive role models either amongst the older girls or, around 15 when she started playing for senior teams, young women. Unfortunately now the presence of a stronger TW, either on the opposite team, would be likely to put her off. A couple of months ago in her 20s she wound up pretty battered playing against someone in their 30s with a male body.)

borntobequiet · 19/02/2023 07:27

This is actually a review of Private Eye’s own review, I’m posting it because it reproduces the PE review in full. (I know nothing of this blogger but I agree with his comments here, and I can’t link to the actual review.)

mickhartley.typepad.com/blog/2023/02/eye-tavistock-review.html

drhf · 19/02/2023 07:38

PS The Rachel Cooke piece is in the Observer of course - silence (omertà) from the Guardian proper.

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2023 08:12

Thanks drhf

A good review. I googled again. As of an hour ago it is on the Guardian website.

www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/19/time-to-think-by-hannah-barnes-review-what-went-wrong-at-gids

How long can Guardian editorial staff, Senior Labour politicians, and NHS managers/EDI staff, keep the line that there is nothing amiss.

Here's hoping that because the foundations are so slight, the whole gender edifice will tumble quickly.

ResisterRex · 19/02/2023 08:29

Related thread in case of interest:

Sunday Times: The Tavistock is still operating and referring children for puberty blockers www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4746010-sunday-times-the-tavistock-is-still-operating-and-referring-children-for-puberty-blockers

DworkinWasRight · 19/02/2023 08:51

The Rachel Cooke review is really powerful. How long can the Guardian bury its head in the sand?

PriamFarrl · 19/02/2023 09:02

I just started a thread but then I noticed this one.

Its like we were right all along.
www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/19/time-to-think-by-hannah-barnes-review-what-went-wrong-at-gids?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1676792952

Whatwouldscullydo · 19/02/2023 09:11

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2023 07:22

That is very weird.

An important book is coming out that is likely to be of interest to their readers, whether those readers agree with Barnes or not. They can't not review it, so they restrict access.

I think puberty is much more difficult now. A decade ago I allowed DD to have Fb, or bebo, when leaving primary school though insisted everything went through my email until she was 13. Eventually we sat down and discussed the endless stream of posts from "cool girls" having fun hanging out in shopping malls etc. Phones did not have the same capabilities then, so the posting would have happened from their bedrooms. Ie they were much like everyone else, going to school, doing homework, watching box sets of Friends or playing Farmville, and occasionally handing out. Even then boys were under pressure. DS was exposed to porn aged 11 (he was upset so told me.) Others aged 8. Some of the memes circulating were offensive and cruel.

Fb is out. Now it is TikTok, SnapChat and WhatsApp. Parents cannot control and the social pressures from influencers, filters, smartphone capability, etc have grown immensely. Throw genderwoo, and a girl who does not present in a typically feminine way, has poor social skills, has self-esteem issues and and and, is very likely to feel inadequate or plain "wrong".

(Sport was DDs saviour. Lots of positive role models either amongst the older girls or, around 15 when she started playing for senior teams, young women. Unfortunately now the presence of a stronger TW, either on the opposite team, would be likely to put her off. A couple of months ago in her 20s she wound up pretty battered playing against someone in their 30s with a male body.)

I think the way forward here should be going back.to old school methods.

Schools ditching the homework apps. Going back to homework diaries and written work. Then all the kids would need is a drug dealer phone.

Kids are less safe now witg access to smart phones even though theoretically it should make life so much simpler
. But because u can Google in a second kids have lost the ability to forward plan. Have a back up plan..organise themselves etc uts hindering their street smart not making them.safer. and the sheer amount of information available is over whelming. They dont have the skills to pick out whats a good source amd what's some blog by some conspiracy theorist.

We all survived using a house phone to call friends or knocking on doors. Its not a big deal.

endofthelinefinally · 19/02/2023 10:46

Dennis Kavanagh posted this link to this video on his substack a couple of days ago. I didn't know about Hannah Barnes' book until I watched the video. It is a very sobering watch. I am surprised it hasn't been posted on here yet, unless I have missed it elsewhere.
"How Did Society Fall into a Freshly Clothed Eugenics Movement and Ideologically Sacrificed Children?"

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 19/02/2023 11:05

Going back a bit, but this:

No one tells them that pain and suffering are just a normal part of life and not always a problem to be solved.

I think is really important. Puberty is, for most people, a bit of pain and suffering but it's not actually traumatic. If it was, we wouldn't have managed to have a fully functioning society for millennia because the trauma that very single human experienced at puberty would have buggered up the whole shebang.

The idea that yes, there are times when life sucks but you keep plodding through and eventually come out the other side seems to have been lost.

It reminds me of the opioid scandal in the US - doctors were prescribing these insanely powerful painkillers because of the idea that being in pain cannot be tolerated, it must be made to go away instantly. I read a very interesting piece on the way that the opioid addiction has run rampant in the US in part because of this attitude, whereas in Germany the pharmaceutical companies didn't even try to establish a market for the drugs because the culture was accepting of pain being a normal part of, for eg, post-op recovery, whereas in the US it was not.

Birdsweepsin · 19/02/2023 12:04

DworkinWasRight · 19/02/2023 08:51

The Rachel Cooke review is really powerful. How long can the Guardian bury its head in the sand?

I dont know if its just me but this bit reads very pointedly at Guardian colleagies:

Such a book cannot easily be dismissed. To do so, a person would not only have to be wilfully ignorant, they would also – to use the popular language of the day – need to be appallingly unkind.

Andante57 · 19/02/2023 12:19

How long can Guardian editorial staff, Senior Labour politicians, and NHS managers/EDI staff, keep the line that there is nothing amiss.

I’ve wondered that. If they ever do, will they admit “some mistakes have been made and the Guardian newspaper is constantly updating its editorial process” blah blah, or will they suddenly change their views - like Sweden went from driving on the left to driving in the right overnight?

PriamFarrl · 19/02/2023 13:32

The review is on the guardian Twitter feed. The replies are people saying how dreadful they are and this will cause more people to be murdered.

StephanieSuperpowers · 19/02/2023 14:14

Can you post a link for those of us who haven't installed Twitter on their new phone to try to limit use of it, please?!

IJustHadToLookHavingReadTheBook · 19/02/2023 17:22

I'm really looking forward to reading this as everything that I've read/listened on it has felt very even handed and interesting. Place marking.

StephanieSuperpowers · 19/02/2023 18:06

Thanks for the link!

StephanieSuperpowers · 19/02/2023 18:11

Wow. I mean, seriously unbalanced. Frightening, really. How can any adult listen to that nonsense?

notsurewherenotsurewhy · 19/02/2023 21:46

Genuine plea (I've NC again recently so conscious my v limited posting history might look suspect), has anyone come across a halfway sensible rebuttal of the book yet? I'm sceptical that one can possibly be made, but I'd feel better informed if I were able to stress-test it a bit! Twitter frothing doesn't quite do the job.

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 22:01

Just dropping current Amazon rank here:

Best Sellers Rank: 48 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)

1 in Family & Social Groups

1 in Anthropology & Sociology Biographies

10 in Gender Studies (Books)

EpicChaos · 19/02/2023 22:49

@endofthelinefinally
Thank you for posting the link to that video, sorry, i don't know who the person in it is but i'd be interested to hear/read more of what they had to say.
Iirc, the original Mengele never had to answer for his crimes but it's incumbent on all of us, to make sure, that not one of those responsible for this crime goes unpunished and every last one of those latter day Mengele's taking an active part in pushing the ideology will feel the wrath of society for their actions, be they doctors, surgeons, nurses, teachers, workers from companies such as celebrate and educate or whatever they are called, etc., etc., etc. i don't care who they are, or what they do, there must be no hiding place for them!

@SirSamVimesCityWatch
" in Germany the pharmaceutical companies didn't even try to establish a market for the drugs because the culture was accepting of pain being a normal part of, for eg, post-op recovery, whereas in the US it was not. "

My understanding of the opioid addiction crisis was that it was due in the main to long term use for chronic pain and the dragon, ever being in need of being chased, rather than short term post-op care?
Following 2 surgeries in recent years, i can tell you, in all honesty, hand on heart, that i couldn't care less, or give a rats, what pain killers they packed me with to wake up with but i wouldn't entertain the thought of using opioids going forwards. I refused them outright - soluble paracetamol ftw! lol

The rest of your post i agree with.

@Needmoresleep
" I think puberty is much more difficult now. "

Puberty, or parenting?
I am unaware that the physical aspects of puberty have changed???

" A decade ago I allowed DD to have Fb, or bebo, when leaving primary school though insisted everything went through my email until she was 13. Eventually we sat down and discussed the endless stream of posts from "cool girls" having fun hanging out in shopping malls etc.

Eventually? Why eventually? Why didn't you ( and by you, i mean parents as a peer group not you in particular, i'm not singling you out. ) do that to begin with, as a bare minimum.
Stable doors and bolted horses!
It seems to me, that too many parents abdicated their parenting responsibilities in favour of being besties and buying their childrens' love/friendship, in exchange for only giving 15 minutes ' quality time '.Have another participation medal Jemima!

The transing of kids, imo, is the middle class ( mostly ) equivalent of the sex grooming gangs in towns and cities up and down the country, where councils/police/social services, etc., all looked the other way. I'd be very interested to know, which towns and cities had grooming gangs and now have the same councils and councillors in particular, desperate to prostrate themselves at the altar of Stonewall by demanding boys/men have access to girls/womens toilets/changing facilities across schools and municipal facilities.
I'd be very interested in the facts about that and them, indeed!

WarriorNun · 20/02/2023 10:14

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 22:01

Just dropping current Amazon rank here:

Best Sellers Rank: 48 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)

1 in Family & Social Groups

1 in Anthropology & Sociology Biographies

10 in Gender Studies (Books)

Brilliant.

WarriorNun · 20/02/2023 10:15

" I think puberty is much more difficult now.

It's social media that's the issue