Any lawyers seen the video of RMW "explaining" GC beliefs?

[MuffinWoman]

I don't think I can say what was said here due to copyright but in my opinion it is an intensely biased explanation of GC beliefs. Why get someone so opposed to GC beliefs to explain what they are in such a partisan way?

In essence, it presents GC as an extreme belief that is challenging for employers to accommodate (it says that if an employer finds out they have an employee with GC beliefs the first thing they should do is not panic!!!) and says that people with GC beliefs think trans people are "wrong" and should not be supported.

It is on one of the leading legal subscription websites - not sure if I can say which but it's not Lexis!

You cannot bring a male of any chosen feelings or identity into a female only space without rendering it mixed sex for all the females. This actively excludes some females.

There need to be a mix of spaces, some of which are mixed sex 'womens' ones and some of which are female only, because otherwise we're including men so that they have a better choice of facility at the expense of excluding women from any access or facility at all. Which is obviously not inclusion, and not appropriate or fair to try and improve the lot of one group of society by wrecking equality and access for another.

@howmanybicycles Honestly 20+ years ago someone transitioned at work and I had no issue with them using the women’s toilets. At no point did I ever expect TW in women’s prisons.

I have over the years used mens toilets on a few occasions. I recently had, what to me was, a very funny incident at the theatre where I arrived late needed the loo and was directed to the mens toilets repurposed as gender neutral. They were empty so all fine. After the show I used them again walking past 2 men using the urinals. When I came out of the cubical there were two big men using the sinks to wash their hands and they gave each other a look over my head. 😭

To answer your question my views have changed and we need a hardline that single sex spaces are exactly that and no biological males should be able to use them. However, where possible additional unisex facilities should also be available these are in addition not instead of.

Thanks for your posts, Charlie. You always bring the science and the studies.

I don't believe in true trans either. I don't think there's any such thing as transgender in the way that people think of it.

I was just wondering if diamond did, because they still seem to hang onto the idea that gender dysphoria is a standalone condition for some reason, which I couldn't get to the bottom of.

@Datun help me out as I really am trying to understand what you mean by true trans and gender dysphoria not being a stand alone condition.

Still not the person asked, but I'llanswer anyway.

"True trans" can mean two things

• only homosexual transsexuals are trans, non-homosexual transsexuals are just fetishists

(this is an incorrect claim in as much as if the former are transsexuals then so are the latter, because the term merely describes someone who medically transitions in an attempt to rid their body of the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of their own sex and who seeks ways to emulate those of the opposite sex. Which is true for both groups. The term does not describe why exactly an individual seeks to transition.)

• only those people who identify as trans who also have gender dysphoria are trans

(Which was once a statement held to be obvious and uncontroversial as it was widely believed, but with the ascent of gender identity ideology it no longer is considered true for many if not all trans rights activists.)

Many people also believe both of those things.

Actually, I forgot a third statement:

• only those people who identify as trans who actually medically transition are trans

(This was at the heart of a massive years-long fallout taking part over between young female American YouTubers split into two camps

• those who identify as men, who are early-onset transsexuals, i.e. lesbians with gender dysphoria who transition medically and

• those who identify as non-binary, who may or may not be lesbians, who may or may not have GD and who don't believe a person has to transition to be trans

The fight was eventually won by the latter camp a wee while ago.)

@CharlieParley
"True trans" can mean two things

• only homosexual transsexuals are trans, non-homosexual transsexuals are just fetishists (this is an incorrect claim in as much as if the former are transsexuals then so are the latter, because the term merely describes someone who medically transitions in an attempt to rid their body of the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of their own sex and who seeks ways to emulate those of the opposite sex. Which is true for both groups. The term does not describe why exactly an individual seeks to transition.)

I agree both can be transsexuals as it’s about medical transition. ( They can also both be fetishists.)

• only those people who identify as trans who also have gender dysphoria are trans. (Which was once a statement held to be obvious and uncontroversial as it was widely believed, but with the ascent of gender identity ideology it no longer is considered true for many if not all trans rights activists.)

OK, I would say this is close to what I believe as for most of my life this is what trans was, looked like etc.

Thank you.

It's because you seemed to think there was a reason for gender dysphoria, other than the ones I listed. The biggest one being homophobia. But gender stereotyping, trauma, etc, there are others.

As Charlie points out, very early gender dysphoria would be the result of an adverse childhood experience. Which to a layman like me would come under the category of trauma.

You seemed to imply that there could be another reason for gender dysphoria, that was different to these things?

Some people do genuinely believe that identifying as transgender or having gender dysphoria is an innate condition like being gay, that is not the result of a reaction to behaviour.

@CharlieParley
Actually, I forgot a third statement:

• only those people who identify as trans who actually medically transition are trans

I don’t believe that as medical transition is not an easy path.

(This was at the heart of a massive years-long fallout taking part over between young female American YouTubers split into two camps

• those who identify as men, who are early-onset transsexuals, i.e. lesbians with gender dysphoria who transition medically and

those who identify as non-binary, who may or may not be lesbians, who may or may not have GD and who don't believe a person has to transition to be trans

The fight was eventually won by the latter camp a wee while ago.)
😂

Diamondsmile

if you want to quote someone you can use the quote function, if it's their entire post. Or if you just want to quote a bit, put an asterisk either side of the bit you copy and paste, and it will put it in bold.

@Datun thank you.

In the Interim Cass Review Dr Cass states “1.7. At primary, secondary and specialist level, there is a lack of agreement, and in many instances a lack of open discussion, about the extent to which gender incongruence in childhood and adolescence can be an inherent and immutable phenomenon for which transition is the best option for the individual, or a more fluid and temporal response to a range of developmental, social, and psychological factors. Professionals’ experience and position on this spectrum may determine their clinical approach.“

So you are saying GD can never be an inherent or immutable phenomenon it is always a response to external factors.

Given that scientists who are far more qualified than me can’t definitively say one way or the other I will stick with my view it is inherent in some people. Rapid onset gender dysphoria in teenagers is more likely to be a response to external factors.

Thank you to youand @CharlieParley for taking the time to explain.

Given that scientists who are far more qualified than me can’t definitively say one way or the other

I thought that paragraph was saying that there is disagreement between specialists about whether or not gender incongruence is inherent and immutable, with some saying that it is and others that it is not. Not that they're all saying 'I don't know', which is how you seem to be interpreting it.

If it is inherent and immutable, what does that mean for those people? Would it mean that they are destined from birth to feel that their bodies are wrong and need to be modified to resemble that of the opposite sex, and there is no treatment for that condition other than to modify their bodies accordingly? If so, wouldn't that also mean that those with the similar condition of BIID are destined from from birth to feel that their bodies are wrong and they will have to have some of their limbs amputated, and that there is no alternative treatment for that condition?

As far as I know, there is no evidence of it being inherent.

Do you mean a baby is born with gender dysphoria?

Also, I've seen so many doctors talk absolute bollocks about this issue that hard evidence is the least that is required.

@OldCrone Fair point I should have said seeing as they can’t agree rather than can’t definitively say.

Have to say I assumed some people with BIIL may have felt like that from birth.

Again my knowledge is limited but I thought a lot of treatments are designed to manage a condition (any condition not specifically GD) rather than curing it.

@Datum As far as I know, there is no evidence of it being inherent.
Also, I've seen so many doctors talk absolute bollocks about this issue that hard evidence is the least that is required.
I agree about evidence but the quote does imply some scientist or clinicians do believe it is inherent.

Do you mean a baby is born with gender dysphoria?
A pre- disposition (hope that is the right word) so trauma may bring out the dysphoria.

I'm probably belabouring the point here, but what would cause a baby to have a predisposition to hate their own body?

Doctors themselves are completely unreliable. They can be just as captured as anyone else. The Tavistock, who you would expect to show some curiosity, ignored the link between autism and gender dysphoria.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/tavistock-clinic-ignored-link-autism-transgender-children/?fbclid=IwAR0u7zEOBAm1mpUiuX5DVUlV49zSNiZYs_XwweZlBLe-KCR3g-bT80HKXvQ

@Datun No one believes the Tavistock was doing a good job, some doctors did whistle blow but were ignored.

We clearly have reached the point of agreeing to disagree.

Good debate.

I think that is a very good question. That predisposition would also need to be shown to be completely acontrxtual to be valid which I don't think is possible given how gendered human societies have been for so long.

Is it just me being thick or has this thread been completely derailed?

@JanesLittleGirl it has, I posted and got a lot of responses which took the thread away from the original post.

When I said earlier that I believe GD exists, what I meant is that I believe there is a small minority of individuals who have a genuine, visceral loathing of their body based around their genitals / secondary sex characteristics and who feel they would be happier without those body parts. But as “gender” is, ultimately, a load of made up bollocks that varies across time and geography, it’s not possible for “gender dysphoria” to be inherent. It would be more accurate to call it a form of body dysmorphia.

If it were possible for GD, or the predisposition toward it, to be inherent in young children, we would see far less destransition than we do, and would be far closer than we are to having some kind of diagnostic test to identify who will and won’t desist before life-altering treatment was administered.

Back to RMW, it's kicking off between the lawyers of Twitter...

Signal, I note RMW’s use of dehumanising language “gender crits” in that tweet. There’s a poster on here who does that regularly. I can’t remember the user name.

RMW seems salty about not getting a pub invite!

Let’s hope that RMW can exercise a bit more caution now that arrests have been made - the case is being heard in the youth court which comes with additional reporting restrictions (including on social media).