Any lawyers seen the video of RMW "explaining" GC beliefs?

[MuffinWoman]

I don't think I can say what was said here due to copyright but in my opinion it is an intensely biased explanation of GC beliefs. Why get someone so opposed to GC beliefs to explain what they are in such a partisan way?

In essence, it presents GC as an extreme belief that is challenging for employers to accommodate (it says that if an employer finds out they have an employee with GC beliefs the first thing they should do is not panic!!!) and says that people with GC beliefs think trans people are "wrong" and should not be supported.

It is on one of the leading legal subscription websites - not sure if I can say which but it's not Lexis!

WTF?

Are there other aspects of court cases or professional performance we are not allowed to mention?

I presume someone did show up in order to report.

@Shelefttheweb @DarkDayforMN I reported them as deliberately targeting one person by using a specific word to knowingly goad that individual into joining this thread.

I have no issue with critiques of professional performance as long as they are accurate. It has been confirmed on several threads that Garden Court Chambers legal team were responsible and that Stonewalls legal team had no input and no responsibility.

Multiple posters continuing to use that word in relation to a particular individual to goad them into a response is getting very close to bullying.

Stonewalls legal team had no input

Don’t be daft. Of course Stonewall had input into the evidence pack - their case was in there.

@Shelefttheweb That isn’t how it works, Stonewall and Ben Cooper will have sent their evidence to GCC legal team who then compile it all into one document and then add the page numbers. The page numbering is what caused the issues.

Of course people accept gender dysphoria exists. It would be a denial of reality to state otherwise. What they don't agree with is that it is a description of being born in the wrong body.

There are many reasons for gender dysphoria, one of which is homophobia, either one's own internal sense of it, or a reaction to external homophobia.

The gender critical position would be to address the homophobia, not accommodate it by pretending that a man can be a woman because he's effeminate.

You seem to be very well informed and quite emotionally invested in the B-word situation, Diamond. We are lucky to have you here!

Perhaps Diamo can explain why RMW thought it wise to publish an opinion piece on a sub judice criminal case?

IANAL but it seems rather unprofessional to this layperson?.

@Datun as far as I am aware properly diagnosed gender dysphoria has nothing to do with homophobia. Homophobic parents, professionals and other adults may prefer a trans child/person to a gay/lesbian child/person but gender dysphoria is not about their preference it is about how the child/person feels about themselves.

I recall reading a study by a respected doctor in the field of gender dysphoria saying historically it was typically very young children I.e. 5 years old who first presented. He then went on to explain the very new phenomenon of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria in pre-pubescent and pubescent which was different.

This is in part supported by The Interim Cass review which on p57 has a diagram showing the complex presentations and complex pathways. One of the presentations is called “Longstanding settled gender inconguence”. This is the very small group I was referring to and are the group most likely to experience acute distress during puberty and to meet the current criteria for a GRC.

The widening of the trans umbrella had done this small group of people a real disservice by warping peoples views of what gender dysphoria actually is.

Like a lot of things in this debate there is no agreed full definition of the gender critical position, and GC people disagree on what the full position is. For example you and I disagree that gender dysphoria includes/excludes homophobia.

It would be ridiculously naive to think that how a person feels about themselves is not influenced by the attitudes of people around them and how they are treated.

@DarkDayforMN that is because I have been to 2 ETs as a witness, I followed both Maya and Allison ETs, plus I was curious about who was responsible and accountable for the mess. So under a previous user name I asked a question on the legal board and helpful legal professionals explained how it worked.

Trust me I disagree with a lot the individual says but I also have read a lot of threads on here and seen how they can go.

I was particularly shocked by a post on this thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/sarah-phillimore-and-robin-moira-white-interviewed-by-andrew-doyle?page=4

Which started with “come back Robin, come and have a conversation with the 87 witches. Give us your thoughts on this from the above article.”.

if you stop and think if 87 TRAs posted this on a thread with one GC poster we would call it bullying. Just because we disagree with their position doesn’t mean we can condone multiple posters goading that individual, which is what is routinely happening.

Yes the individual doesn’t help themselves, but as I said in an earlier post they post under their real name we chose to use pseudonyms.

'Properly diagnosed gender dysphoria' results from several underlying causes.

The Tavistock clinic ignored evidence that 97.5 per cent of children seeking sex changes had autism, depression or other problems that might have explained their unhappiness, a new book claims.

Staff at the NHS facility were so determined to push a pro-transgender policy that children who might not have been trans were treated as “collateral damage” by clinicians who labelled doubters “transphobic”, a whistleblower says.

Seven in ten children had more than five “associated features” such as abuse, anxiety, eating disorders or bullying, and a social worker estimated that as few as 1 in 50 children treated at the clinic would have stayed transgender for life if they had not been given controversial drug therapy.

Dr Hutchinson told Ms Barnes that she realised the puberty blockers might have been confirming a trans identity rather than simply pausing puberty, and: “I was horrified because I just suddenly thought, ‘Oh God, Oh God’.” She became concerned that Gids was getting it wrong by referring children for assessment for puberty blockers who were traumatised, abused, autistic or simply gay, but said that the finding on puberty blockers was brushed aside by staff.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/tavistock-clinic-ignored-link-autism-transgender-children/

What do you think causes gender dysphoria other than these underlying conditions?

Like a lot of things in this debate there is no agreed full definition of the gender critical position

“biological sex is real, important, immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity”

^ is the official Gender Critical position. Everything else is just individual opinion.

Did you miss the part where RMW told everyone to keep stirring our cauldrons?

Robin implied posters on that thread are witches, flounced, and your issue is with people asking Robin to come back and engage with the thread?

Ok.

@howmanybicycles of course people are influenced by others this is why we now have rapid onset gender dysphoria, but that is distinct to gender dysphoria.

I may be using the wrong term, but Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) describes the extremely rare phenomenon of persons who desire the amputation of one or more healthy limbs or who desire a paralysis.

I agree with you “It would be ridiculously naive to think that how a person feels about themselves is not influenced by the attitudes of people around them and how they are treated.” Anyone would want to influence someone with BIID not to cut off a healthy limb but they still desire it and even achieve it. True gender dysphoria is the same you can try to influence but the dysphoria is there.

The issue is most people under the trans umbrella do not have gender dysphoria.

@Datun The Interim Cass Review identified all those presentations plus Long Standing Gender Incongruence, what I have call gender dysphoria p57 cass.independent-review.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Cass-Review-Interim-Report-Final-Web-Accessible.pdf
What happened at GIDS is horrific and as I have stated, possibly on other threads, will end up with a public enquiry like the infected blood enquiry.

@ShireWifeofNigelFarage totally agree. I worded it differently but said that in a previous post. I then went on to say but I believe a small number of people have gender dysphoria and was told I was stating the obvious. As the responses have shown GC people do have different interpretations of gender dysphoria proving my point.

@NotBadConsidering I am aware of the witches comment and my point was about posters on this thread goading one person to join in and that on other threads I had seen a large number of posters goading one person I.e. 87 vs 1. Hence the quote

I should imagine Whittle is grieving for the time when transactivism was still working successfully under the radar, when those who had self-restraint were at the forefront of quiet lobbying in many different places, and before the reality that the demands being made mostly benefit men who are sexually excited by being in women’s spaces had become obvious.

Perhaps Whittle thought it could all be controlled.

I wonder whether reality has actually hit home, or whether what was being pushed was always understood to be male rights activism, but considered to be worth doing anyway as it was only women who would be hurt.

What happened at GIDS is horrific and as I have stated, possibly on other threads, will end up with a public enquiry like the infected blood enquiry

The infected blood inquiry which took years (many years after the problems were known) to get started and has been running since 2018? I’m sceptical it’ll achieve anything worthwhile.

Nobody will be prosecuted for their ‘mistakes’ in continuing to source blood products from infected prisoners in the States. It’s unlikely that any living individual Doctors, civil servants or politicians will be named in their final report, let alone face punishment for their actions, which included the deliberate hiding of test results from patients.

If their ever is an Inquiry set up for GIDS then I’d put money on the doctors and other HCPs involved not facing sanctions either.

Hell, I’ll be pleasantly surprised if the conclusions drawn from the CASS report result in actual improvements, if for no other reasons than the NHS is still largely captured AND there’s no money to provide proper MH services as it is.

@PaterPower sadly I agree it is unlikely to see those responsible held to account.

Actually, that post is indicative of how RMW insulted posters here with a misogynistic slur and doesn’t have the guts to come back and defend Robinself. It’s not goady. Goady is frequently turning up threads, lying, insulting, then leaving.

If Robin doesn’t want to be directly addressed as an individual on threads here, Robin should refrain from publicly speaking on law matters, and from getting disgusting opinion pieces published in national newspapers. I doubt Robin can refrain from such matters.

Besides, Robin isn’t the only TRA to be named in such a manner. It’s common to ask of the whereabouts of regular TRA posters who conveniently disappear and seem to ignore threads that prove they’re wrong. Like when the Wi Spa suspect was confirmed to be a male arrested for indecent exposure. Tumbleweeds on that thread.

I wonder why?🤔

@NotBadConsidering If you read that full thread there were a lot of personal insults about RMW prior to their final post. I have stated several times RMW responds in kind, it is the number of posters making personal comments vs 1 that I am uncomfortable with.

Why should RMW as a barrister stop talking about law matters and not all of us? I agree RMW does not always correctly interpret the law and I have no issue with anyone challenging that.

The opinion piece was unpleasant but was accurate about the names RMW has been called and the behaviour of Sarah and Maya at the committee hearing. What ever you think of RMW, the optics of repeated personal insults and poor behaviour in a committee meeting do not show GC people in a good light.

I think the quality of the debate suffers when posters stray from the facts, law etc and into personal insults (both sides do this). As on other threads some posters on here started using a very specific word to goad RMW onto the thread and I objected to that. Had they politely asked a regular poster for their view I would have had no issue.

Michelle Obama was right when she said when they go low you go high. Stick to the issues being debated without personal slurs and goading comments.

TheBiologyStupid · Yesterday 20:22

Is pointing out RMW's absence from this thread tempting fate?

Robyn had better bring a plate, for their arse to be handed to they, like so often before.

Diamondsmile · Today 00:13

Which started with “come back Robin, come and have a conversation with the 87 witches. Give us your thoughts on this from the above article.”.

Now what could have caused that? Surely you read the spoiled brat's flouncing shot about leaving the thread contributors to their cauldrons? Didn't you? Don't you have a problem with them's misogynistic comments?

We had a 'When they go low we go high' move on here a few years ago. I supported it at the time but I now think I got it wrong - posters here have to jump through enough hoops without policing them even further.

However I do also think that every time Robin posts on here we give them exactly the reaction they're looking for: our attention.

@SinnerBoy I have repeatedly stated I do not agree with the individual but I also don’t agree with goading them.