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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any lawyers seen the video of RMW "explaining" GC beliefs?

216 replies

MuffinWoman · 14/02/2023 09:15

I don't think I can say what was said here due to copyright but in my opinion it is an intensely biased explanation of GC beliefs. Why get someone so opposed to GC beliefs to explain what they are in such a partisan way?

In essence, it presents GC as an extreme belief that is challenging for employers to accommodate (it says that if an employer finds out they have an employee with GC beliefs the first thing they should do is not panic!!!) and says that people with GC beliefs think trans people are "wrong" and should not be supported.

It is on one of the leading legal subscription websites - not sure if I can say which but it's not Lexis!

OP posts:
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Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:24

@Datun this is a genuine question, as we agree homophobia is one cause of rapid onset gender dysphoria. Do you think homophobia actually causing rapid onset gender dysphoria or is it causing teens to display many of the behaviours of someone with gender dysphoria leading to misdiagnosis of rapid onset gender dysphoria resulting in incorrect treatment?

There are other causes of rapid onset gender dysphoria such as ASD, ADHD, trauma, social media etc. which also present with behaviours of rapid onset gender dysphoria and again where incorrect treatment may be being given?

TheBiologyStupid · 15/02/2023 12:24

I'd have eyerolled to the best of my abilities. Something Angela Merkel was famous for by the way.

Indeed, Charlie!

Datun · 15/02/2023 12:25

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 12:19

Ah I see! Diamond seemed to think otherwise!

Yes, I'd like to know what this esoteric reason is behind gender dysphoria, that no one seems to be able to grasp.

AGP aside, I see nothing but homophobia, sexism, and an understandable wish to escape womanhood for young girls raised in a porn soaked environment that dehumanises women to the point of sacrificing them to rapists in prison.

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:31

@Datun my last post overlapped with yours at 12:20 I absolutely agree with you the examples you quote are upsetting.

Datun · 15/02/2023 12:40

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:24

@Datun this is a genuine question, as we agree homophobia is one cause of rapid onset gender dysphoria. Do you think homophobia actually causing rapid onset gender dysphoria or is it causing teens to display many of the behaviours of someone with gender dysphoria leading to misdiagnosis of rapid onset gender dysphoria resulting in incorrect treatment?

There are other causes of rapid onset gender dysphoria such as ASD, ADHD, trauma, social media etc. which also present with behaviours of rapid onset gender dysphoria and again where incorrect treatment may be being given?

Yes, there are lots of reasons for rapid onset gender dysphoria, homophobia being one. We know that homophobia is on the increase and that butch girls are often told they must be boys.

Gender ideology relies on adhering to stereotypes. Butch girls are not stereotypically feminine, therefore they must be boys. Effeminate boys are not stereotypically masculine, therefore they must be girls.

Up to and including the entire erasure of sexual orientation being based on sex, and replaced with the idea but it has to be based on one's own subjective view of what constitutes masculinity or femininity.

Hence men fondly thinking that donning a dress means that lesbians should fancy them. And if they don't, well then the male socialisation will kick in, or more likely kick off, and the women will just have to 'cope.'

So much for femininity, eh.

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 12:42

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:24

@Datun this is a genuine question, as we agree homophobia is one cause of rapid onset gender dysphoria. Do you think homophobia actually causing rapid onset gender dysphoria or is it causing teens to display many of the behaviours of someone with gender dysphoria leading to misdiagnosis of rapid onset gender dysphoria resulting in incorrect treatment?

There are other causes of rapid onset gender dysphoria such as ASD, ADHD, trauma, social media etc. which also present with behaviours of rapid onset gender dysphoria and again where incorrect treatment may be being given?

What distinction are you drawing? Dysphoria is a feeling. If people say they're dysphoric, surely they're dysphoric. Are you suggesting that some people say they feel dysphoric but are lieing? ASD per se is not a cause. Its a vulnerability. Culture allows for negative feelings to be expressed in specific ways so whilst a person may feel unhappy, like they don't fit in, turning this into being trans takes a specific cultural way of meaning making.

Datun · 15/02/2023 12:43

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:31

@Datun my last post overlapped with yours at 12:20 I absolutely agree with you the examples you quote are upsetting.

Yes, and I agree that there are many reasons for identifying as transgender. Some of them entirely unrelated to others.

What does a young girl who wants a double mastectomy because she wants to escape womanhood, have in common with a middle-aged man who gets a sexual kick out of wearing women's clothing.

Not much, but they are both based on sexism.

CharlieParley · 15/02/2023 12:44

TheBiologyStupid · 15/02/2023 12:24

I'd have eyerolled to the best of my abilities. Something Angela Merkel was famous for by the way.

Indeed, Charlie!

That is my favourite comedy skit of all time

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:55

Datun · 15/02/2023 12:25

Yes, I'd like to know what this esoteric reason is behind gender dysphoria, that no one seems to be able to grasp.

AGP aside, I see nothing but homophobia, sexism, and an understandable wish to escape womanhood for young girls raised in a porn soaked environment that dehumanises women to the point of sacrificing them to rapists in prison.

@Datun we agree on quite a lot and you are not wrong for the vast majority of people under the trans umbrella.

Maybe it’s my age but I can remember (1970s, 1980s) when there was a very small number of people who as pre school age children were diagnosed with gender dysphoria who in adulthood (30, 40 +) had a sex change as it was called then. I believe this very small cohort still exist.

Don’t underestimate how much of this is underpinned by paraphillias.

  • Voyeurism used to be magazines and nurses accommodation now it’s porn, upskirting, hidden cameras, sex tapes etc.
  • Exhibitionism used to be flashers in raincoats now it’s dick pics, sex tapes etc.
  • AGP etc.
Whilst you “see nothing but homophobia, sexism, and an understandable wish to escape womanhood for young girls raised in a porn soaked environment that dehumanises women to the point of sacrificing them to rapists in prison.” I agree with you but see slightly more than this.
Datun · 15/02/2023 13:03

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:55

@Datun we agree on quite a lot and you are not wrong for the vast majority of people under the trans umbrella.

Maybe it’s my age but I can remember (1970s, 1980s) when there was a very small number of people who as pre school age children were diagnosed with gender dysphoria who in adulthood (30, 40 +) had a sex change as it was called then. I believe this very small cohort still exist.

Don’t underestimate how much of this is underpinned by paraphillias.

  • Voyeurism used to be magazines and nurses accommodation now it’s porn, upskirting, hidden cameras, sex tapes etc.
  • Exhibitionism used to be flashers in raincoats now it’s dick pics, sex tapes etc.
  • AGP etc.
Whilst you “see nothing but homophobia, sexism, and an understandable wish to escape womanhood for young girls raised in a porn soaked environment that dehumanises women to the point of sacrificing them to rapists in prison.” I agree with you but see slightly more than this.

Ok, diamond, but what is it? What do you think causes this gender dysphoria in preschool children that has nothing to do with the things I mentioned?

OldCrone · 15/02/2023 13:06

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 12:55

@Datun we agree on quite a lot and you are not wrong for the vast majority of people under the trans umbrella.

Maybe it’s my age but I can remember (1970s, 1980s) when there was a very small number of people who as pre school age children were diagnosed with gender dysphoria who in adulthood (30, 40 +) had a sex change as it was called then. I believe this very small cohort still exist.

Don’t underestimate how much of this is underpinned by paraphillias.

  • Voyeurism used to be magazines and nurses accommodation now it’s porn, upskirting, hidden cameras, sex tapes etc.
  • Exhibitionism used to be flashers in raincoats now it’s dick pics, sex tapes etc.
  • AGP etc.
Whilst you “see nothing but homophobia, sexism, and an understandable wish to escape womanhood for young girls raised in a porn soaked environment that dehumanises women to the point of sacrificing them to rapists in prison.” I agree with you but see slightly more than this.

You might find this article about the different types of gender dysphoria interesting.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

I can remember (1970s, 1980s) when there was a very small number of people who as pre school age children were diagnosed with gender dysphoria

Do you have any more information about this?

I wasn't aware that children of any age were being diagnosed with this condition in the 70s and 80s. I don't think GIDS existed until 1989. Or were you talking about somewhere outside the UK?

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 13:14

OldCrone · 15/02/2023 13:06

You might find this article about the different types of gender dysphoria interesting.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

I can remember (1970s, 1980s) when there was a very small number of people who as pre school age children were diagnosed with gender dysphoria

Do you have any more information about this?

I wasn't aware that children of any age were being diagnosed with this condition in the 70s and 80s. I don't think GIDS existed until 1989. Or were you talking about somewhere outside the UK?

That article is making a whole heap of assumptions which can't be proven. We have no idea what people felt before their behaviour alerted us to an issue. It doesnt say much about the societal conditions which allow these iasues to thrive (though does mention social contagion). Why do you think it's relevant?

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 13:21

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 12:42

What distinction are you drawing? Dysphoria is a feeling. If people say they're dysphoric, surely they're dysphoric. Are you suggesting that some people say they feel dysphoric but are lieing? ASD per se is not a cause. Its a vulnerability. Culture allows for negative feelings to be expressed in specific ways so whilst a person may feel unhappy, like they don't fit in, turning this into being trans takes a specific cultural way of meaning making.

@howmanybicycles happy to be corrected but dysphoria is a state of worry or general unhappiness. I agree they are dysphoric but are they gender dysphoric or do they have another type of dysphoria or just generally unhappy and need to put a label on it?

For example it appears if a teenager says I’m unhappy with my body the first response now is oh you must be transgender rather than it’s completely normal to think WTF is happening to me why have I got hair growing everywhere and breasts etc. no one ask why are you unhappy? The same is true when a teenager is trying to work out their sexuality they may not be able to articulate why they are unhappy so have dysphoria but is it gender dysphoria?

It’s the lack of questioning from schools, NHS GIDS etc. to get to the underlying cause of the dysphoria that has led to this. Hannah Barnes’ book and the Times articles show there was a change in approach by GIDS and this coupled with Stonewalls need to keep the money rolling in and the Longterm plan (my memory fails me Denton’s or Thompson’sI think) the growth of social media and the Be Kind messaging etc. that led us to where we are.

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 13:25

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 13:21

@howmanybicycles happy to be corrected but dysphoria is a state of worry or general unhappiness. I agree they are dysphoric but are they gender dysphoric or do they have another type of dysphoria or just generally unhappy and need to put a label on it?

For example it appears if a teenager says I’m unhappy with my body the first response now is oh you must be transgender rather than it’s completely normal to think WTF is happening to me why have I got hair growing everywhere and breasts etc. no one ask why are you unhappy? The same is true when a teenager is trying to work out their sexuality they may not be able to articulate why they are unhappy so have dysphoria but is it gender dysphoria?

It’s the lack of questioning from schools, NHS GIDS etc. to get to the underlying cause of the dysphoria that has led to this. Hannah Barnes’ book and the Times articles show there was a change in approach by GIDS and this coupled with Stonewalls need to keep the money rolling in and the Longterm plan (my memory fails me Denton’s or Thompson’sI think) the growth of social media and the Be Kind messaging etc. that led us to where we are.

I agree. Except for this bit

. I agree they are dysphoric but are they gender dysphoric or do they have another type of dysphoria or just generally unhappy and need to put a label on it?

I think the way all dysphoria works is that first we feel the we try and figure out why. I don't believe there's real and unreal gender dysphoria. How we react as a society does influence how emotions persist though and we are currently making things worse I order to service entitled men.

Datun · 15/02/2023 13:27

Diamondsmile

do you subscribe to the true trans school of thought?

That there are definitely some people who are truly transgender?

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 13:31

@OldCrone thanks the article is interesting.

It was definitely UK, my memory is predominantly of a TV programme following a transwoman through their sex change en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Change_of_Sex

GIDS would only have been established when there was sufficient demand so I assume they were treated by NHS but there was no specialist unit.

CharlieParley · 15/02/2023 13:35

The very first patients to medically transition were AGPs.

Those we think of as the stereotypical transsexuals, documented from the 60s onwards, who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria in early childhood were almost always boys, girls were slightly older. The causes are evident from the papers - a disruption in early childhood development in the crucial phases of personality development.

Stage 2, age 1.5 to 3 is called autonomy vs doubt or shame
Stage 3 age 3 to 5 is called initiative vs guilt

These names hint at what happens when these stages are not resolved successfully.

Children discover their own will and seek to assert it. Preferences develop. Adverse childhood experiences disrupt this normal process in some children leading to personality disorders and/or other mental health issues. And for a tiny number (6 in 100,000), the result is gender dysphoria.

ACEs include abuse, neglect, trauma, sexual exploitation, violence, bereavement etc

Puberty is what resolves the mind and body conflict in those who go on to desist. Those who go through puberty and persist almost always transition early and are therefore not only known as homosexual transsexuals but also early-onset transitioners.

If you look at the autobiographies of transsexuals, who fall into that group, they detail in their own words what the ACEs are. In very many cases more than one ACE, but one of the most frequent is being punished (abused) for gender-non-conformity by parents or caregivers who equate being GNC with being gay or lesbian and who believe they can stop their child growing up to be homosexual by forcing them to conform to sex stereotypes.

(In actual fact, the parents were often not wrong to think that their children were going to be homosexual, they were just wrong in thinking that they could stop it from happening. Hence being diagnosed with gender dysphoria in early childhood is a much more reliable predictor of homosexuality than transsexualism.)

So for this cohort, puberty blockers are particularly harmful, because they prevent the very process that would help the majority of these children to reconcile mind and body. The Dutch arrogance here is staggering - there is no way to accurately predict before puberty who will desist. This is why watchful waiting was the approach decided on originally. That prevented the most iatrogenic harm, avoiding the medical transitioning of children who would desist. But because those Dutch clinicians treating the children did not understand that it was puberty itself that was the resolution mechanism, they developed their Dutch protocol, believing that pausing puberty would allow an unknown other resolution mechanism to happen. (This is why studies show 100% or near 100% of children put on blockers progress to cross-sex hormones.)

Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria is a whole different kettle of fish, and it is here where social contagion must be looked at as an important factor. I am not convinced that this cohort experiences the same condition as early-onset transitioners (we obviously know that late-onset transitioners aka non-homosexual transitioners aka AGPs are completely separate from these two cohorts).

MmePoppySeedDefage · 15/02/2023 13:41

On the subject of gender dysphoria, an anecdote.

When I was young I read Jan Moris's account of having gender reassignment surgery, and 14-year-old me was very sympathetic, and thought nothing of the consequences.

I thought JM was genuinely gender dysphoric, until I read very recently, Jan's daughter's account of how when there was an important visitor, Jan would get Jan's poor wife to do the clearing up, saying that was woman's work.

Now I think that even if someone says they have gender dysphoria, we should deal with them in the same way as we would someone who says they need an amputation when they don't, or have anorexia.

SinnerBoy · 15/02/2023 13:41

Then Robin complains that people don't take Robin seriously.

How can someone given to spouting rubbish constantly expect to be taken seriously?

CharlieParley · 15/02/2023 13:42

Datun · 15/02/2023 13:27

Diamondsmile

do you subscribe to the true trans school of thought?

That there are definitely some people who are truly transgender?

You're not asking me but I don't believe that. Because what that would mean is that there really are people born in the wrong body and as sexed brains aren't a thing and as an atheist I don't believe in souls, let alone sexed ones, there's no way for that to happen in my view.

I'm not even convinced that transition for those who persist and believe they'll function better or at all only after transitioning is necessarily the best solution, given the very many health issues they experience.

OldCrone · 15/02/2023 13:53

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 13:14

That article is making a whole heap of assumptions which can't be proven. We have no idea what people felt before their behaviour alerted us to an issue. It doesnt say much about the societal conditions which allow these iasues to thrive (though does mention social contagion). Why do you think it's relevant?

I remember reading it when it was first published in 2017, and as someone quite new to all this I thought it was interesting. I haven't read the whole thing again recently, but perhaps I should have done before posting the link. A lot of things have changed in the last few years.

I did read the first paragraph again before posting, though, just to check I had the right article. I still think they're right that a child like Jazz Jennings identifying as trans has little in common with older heterosexual male transitioners, and that ROGD adolescent girls are different again. Do you disagree with that?

I note that in the intro, 4th Wave Now ( a gender critical site) say "We recognize that regular readers and members of 4thWaveNow will not agree with all of what Bailey and Blanchard have to say". They still decided to publish it though, so presumably thought it had some value. I'll read it again when I get time.

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 13:56

@Datun not quite sure what you mean by true trans school of thought.

I do not believe you can change sex. For most of my life gender and sex were the same thing and I certainly used them interchangeably. I also believe that your sex should not determine what toys you play with, what job you can do (with limited exceptions), what clothes you wear etc. it’s why I find non-binary difficult as it seems to me to be based on a belief in defined stereotypical sex based roles which seems so retrograde.

In an earlier post I mentioned Body Identity Integrity Disorder (BIIL) where a persons mental body image doesn’t match their physical body. People with BIIL desire the amputation of one or more healthy limbs or desire a paralysis.

I see gender dysphoria in a similar way and so no I don’t see them as truly transgender but accept they truly believe they are transgender from a very young age. As a result of their belief they may suffer discrimination in applying for jobs, receive services etc. I don’t agree with changing birth certificates but I believe there should be a way to provide legal protections that do not impinge on women’s and girls rights.

OldCrone · 15/02/2023 14:02

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 13:31

@OldCrone thanks the article is interesting.

It was definitely UK, my memory is predominantly of a TV programme following a transwoman through their sex change en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Change_of_Sex

GIDS would only have been established when there was sufficient demand so I assume they were treated by NHS but there was no specialist unit.

That programme is about an adult transwoman, not a pre-school child being diagnosed with gender dysphoria (or gender identity disorder as it was known until recently).

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 14:09

@OldCrone sorry but it’s vague memories and whilst the TV programme came up with a quick google I can’t recall more details.

howmanybicycles · 15/02/2023 14:18

Diamondsmile · 15/02/2023 13:56

@Datun not quite sure what you mean by true trans school of thought.

I do not believe you can change sex. For most of my life gender and sex were the same thing and I certainly used them interchangeably. I also believe that your sex should not determine what toys you play with, what job you can do (with limited exceptions), what clothes you wear etc. it’s why I find non-binary difficult as it seems to me to be based on a belief in defined stereotypical sex based roles which seems so retrograde.

In an earlier post I mentioned Body Identity Integrity Disorder (BIIL) where a persons mental body image doesn’t match their physical body. People with BIIL desire the amputation of one or more healthy limbs or desire a paralysis.

I see gender dysphoria in a similar way and so no I don’t see them as truly transgender but accept they truly believe they are transgender from a very young age. As a result of their belief they may suffer discrimination in applying for jobs, receive services etc. I don’t agree with changing birth certificates but I believe there should be a way to provide legal protections that do not impinge on women’s and girls rights.

Do you think a tw should ever be in women's spaces? Is there any trans type which you think makes this ok?

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