Handmaid, Handmaiden.

[CandlelightGlow]

Can someone explain why it's been deemed appropriate to call women who appear to be defending men or considering men in any capacity, handmaids?

Does it mean something else that I'm not aware of? My understanding is it comes from the Margaret Atwood novels, referring to women who are forced into ritualistic rape, pregnancy and childbirth.

How exactly does it link to a woman who in one's opinion, chooses to serve the patriarchy. Is it a term feminists should ever use? There is a strong connotation of victim blaming if you are choosing to refer to another woman as a willing handmaid. How is it justifiable?

I'm not asking for examples of when you would consider someone fitting the definition of "handmaiden". I've seen this term thrown around on a couple of threads recently and I'm concerned that it's become a term used largely by women, to insult other women, often in the context of feminist discussions, and I find it interesting that given this very particular context, it's deemed acceptable to use? Again, given the highly misogynistic connotation feeding into the "willing female victim" narrative that already plagues patriarchal rhetoric.

I was interested in what I outlined in my OP, what is the confusion?

What is it about not knowing "what your beliefs are that caused you to be called a handmaid" that makes it impossible for anyone to engage with the OP?

i think the handmaid vs handmaiden discusion is a bit useless really. Since the word Handmaid pops up so much more now (because of the series) some people appear to be using it interchangably.

And if there was any doubt: if i refer to someone as a handmaiden it's not a compliment.

Just tell us what you've said that caused you to be called a handmaiden please @CandlelightGlow .

It’s nothing to do with Atwood’s book.

It’s ‘handmaiden’ not ‘handmaid’.

The whole phrase is ‘handmaiden of patriarchy’ (‘HOP’ for short) and iirc the reference is biblical.

This. It would be nice if people made at least a tiny effort to get their facts straight.

It's completely irrelevant, is it not clear by now that I don't have to and won't be discussing that? It's not the point of my thread at all.

In the posts I'm talking about on mumsnet and elsewhere it is definitely not nothing to do with the books/series.

You keep saying that, but without an example showing the link to the book there's no reason for us to assume you're right.

And to be fair, as unpalatable as it is to see women suffering internalised misogyny and defending the patriarchy, I still think that labelling them all as a homogenous and deliberately maligned group is not a good approach.

Handmaiden has more of a feeling of a low-status official who hopes derives a sense of importance and perhaps favour through serving male interests.

Yes, this. And I don't always use the word, but that's how I see some of the TRA women.

Secretary to the Sperm Makers?

Testicle tenders

The biblical references are pertinent because they demonstrate that the terms handmaid and handmaiden predate The Handmaid’s Tale by two thousand years, and so you can’t define those terms solely in reference to THT.

So using the terms handmaid or handmaiden in ways that don’t refer to THT is not wrong - just a different use of the terms.

Nobody is going to write an explanation of the term they're using and its origins when they're using the term as an insult/colloquialisation, so how am I supposed to provide that?

I've seen it with my own eyes, and although it's a lot to wade through, you can do an advance search on mumsnet which will provide some illustrative posts.

But it's your contention, OP. So back it up!

That's fair.

What I would say though, is, is the older version of the term being used today in any less misogynistic ways, or is it still being used to dismiss and label women, and make assumptions about their wider views toward women and feminism?

I don't like the term "pick me" either. I have been reevaluating my own use of the term "incel" (not that I say it, just think it or hear it said a lot) and I really don't think derogatory words are helpful in general. Everyone is so keen to label people and I find it dehumanising and reductive.

Good, you do you. And other people will do otherwise.

Well, yes, captain obvious, thanks for the input.

Are we not allowed to discuss anything about human behaviour, society or feminism because people are people who have opinions? Honestly I don't understand this place - if you don't like the topic of the thread or don't think it's interesting r relevant why bother to post?

Just making it crystal clear, OP, that I'm not interested in your tone policing, and will speak as I see fit.

The biblical references are pertinent because they demonstrate that the terms handmaid and handmaiden predate The Handmaid’s Tale by two thousand years, and so you can’t define those terms solely in reference to THT.

Exactly.

Doesn’t it pre-date Margaret Atwood who would herself have been drawing on connotations from passages in the Bible?

Also certain fundamentalist religious communities, whether Christian or Muslim, sometimes expect complete subservience from the wife

With all due respect, this is just hot air though. I'm interested in discussing what opinions are around the use of misogynistic terms and thinking regarding other women. Whether it's helpful, and why it's considered okay. Attacking me is so boring, it's just a discussion, I'm not "policing" anyone, I've given my take, and am interested in others. Literally nothing I do or say will influence the way you live your life, I'm not following you around online correcting things you say, or begging you to not use the terms. I find it really immature that people feel the need to try and be biting and condescending, when it's a discussion.

Come off it. You've been told over and over why handmaiden is used. You don't like it but that is the answer. You've every right to say you don't like it but the explanation has been given. You're no feminist as your posts make evident.

Whenever I see The Handmaid’s Tale referenced on here it’s usually either

a) on a surrogacy thread (phrased something like ‘Welcome to Gilead!’)
or
b) as pushback against being told what to do, or being watched (eg ‘Sorry Aunt Lydia’ or ‘Under Xir’s Eye’)

In both cases the Handmaids of the book are being sympathised with, not criticised.

And whenever someone is called a ‘handmaiden’ it’s an accusation of colluding with the oppressor class and refers to the Mary-submitting-herself-to-God-type-handmaiden, not a ‘plucky-June-killing-the-creepy-commander-at-Jezebels’ handmaid.

So while I agree that it’s annoying and nit picky to care so much about an extra en, those two letters are a really important differential for two separate references.

it would make no sense for terves to use the Atwood ‘handmaid’ as an insult whilst also donning the bonnet costume for protests.
Once you consider the two different literary references it makes a lot more sense.

I am a feminist thanks. I don't need the approval of some random person on the internet to consider myself a feminist.

I think people need to separate someone disagreeing with them with personal attacks. I'm not saying I don't understand the points or that they're wrong objectively, I'm allowed to disagree, it's a discussion! The only people who have taken it personally or been argumentative have been rude themselves.

It's not a binary concept, I'm genuinely interested in other people's opinions, but just asserting that I'm wrong isn't exactly an opinion. Plenty of people on the thread have had interesting opinions and written interesting posts.

OP you are being awfully rude to everyone and dismissing everyone who you don't agree with.

You want interesting discussions you might want to tone down the arrogance and snark.

Not really, people are being absolutely awful. They're not engaging with the thread at all but have continued to post throughout to basically invalidate my opinion.

I'm absolutely not dismissing anyone i disagree with, I'm either engaging with them or pointing out that they're just taking issue with me, rather than actually contributing to the discussion. That is not arrogance and is an appropriate level of snark.