Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Scottish police defy Nicola Sturgeon over trans self-ID law

112 replies

IwantToRetire · 08/02/2023 00:40

Scottish police have defied Nicola Sturgeon’s sex self-ID drive by referring to a transgender butcher arrested in connection with the disappearance of an 11-year-old girl as a man.

uk.news.yahoo.com/scottish-police-defy-nicola-sturgeon-210109992.html

What with this and flying drones on sunday to keep women safe makes you wonder?!

OP posts:
axolotlfloof · 08/02/2023 10:06

guinnessguzzler · 08/02/2023 07:35

That's not my tw, she's too rapey. That's not my tw, she's too child abductory. That's my tw, she is fully law abiding and has great hair.

This is hilarious.
I think we need this in book form 😁.
Maybe Mole at the door can create something...

Ndd135632 · 08/02/2023 10:09

axolotlfloof · 08/02/2023 10:06

This is hilarious.
I think we need this in book form 😁.
Maybe Mole at the door can create something...

Show quote history

Can we have touchy feely bits too? Feel a bit yuck writing that.

DodoPatrol · 08/02/2023 10:09

Crikey, I saw ‘53 yr old man charged after child disappearance’ and just assumed he was her dad. The ages seemed to fit.

I take it there’s a different story in this case.

Helleofabore · 08/02/2023 10:14

I do wonder when butcher became a gender though....

SinnerBoy · 08/02/2023 10:15

I wonder if it's the case that editors have simply been toeing the line, through fear, but that the "Isla Bryson" case has now emboldened them to write more plainly? In that they were fearful of sanction, by describing males as women?

scratchedbymycat · 08/02/2023 10:15

This arrest is different. By all accounts this person had been openly living as a TW for years, was part of the trans community, was accepted locally as a TW. They can't disown this one as a pretender. This might be the start of some people having to admit what we all know - that there are predatory individuals in every community and that you cannot, as Maggie Chapman has done, declare trans people as a whole to be safe.

Yes, this arrest is very different. Which makes the police referring to him as a man even more significant. How can Isla Bryson be a woman and Amy Grant be a man?

scratchedbymycat · 08/02/2023 10:17

LBC picking up on it now:

Scottish cops refer to arrested transgender butcher as 'man' despite Sturgeon's controversial gender reform attempts

www.lbc.co.uk/news/sturgeon-transgender-reform-butcher-arrest/

lifeturnsonadime · 08/02/2023 10:17

Helleofabore · 08/02/2023 10:14

I do wonder when butcher became a gender though....

Well given there are already over a hundred genders, according to the Beeb, Scotland just wants to expand the list, in less than a fortnight they've added..

  • rapist
  • individual
  • butcher
CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 08/02/2023 10:21

Obviously nobody has saved up the women’s prison scandals or this abduction for this time, but I wonder if these things have been happening all along but the press has been silenced

The press were silenced. There were loads of events like this reported, with female names but a picture that showed otherwise, then someone had a thought and they could not put pictures up, but we knew. It's the kinds of crimes that gave it away.

Cant remember which group it is that gets these rules into the press. But that group is still going. I do not know what has happened to make so much of the press take no notice now. It's very strange how now they have no problem reporting what males do but before Christmas they didnt/couldnt/wouldnt.

heathspeedwell · 08/02/2023 10:31

I don't think it's particularly odd that JKR mentioned his shop in one of her Strike novels. She has mentioned hundreds of real locations throughout this series so it's bound to happen that one of them will be linked to a current crime at some point.

lifeturnsonadime · 08/02/2023 10:34

heathspeedwell · 08/02/2023 10:31

I don't think it's particularly odd that JKR mentioned his shop in one of her Strike novels. She has mentioned hundreds of real locations throughout this series so it's bound to happen that one of them will be linked to a current crime at some point.

It's not that the shop is mentioned that is odd though is it or the fact that there has been a link to a crime.

It's the nature of the crime and the character of the butcher plus the link to JKR that is odd.

Beowulfa · 08/02/2023 10:39

heathspeedwell · 08/02/2023 09:52

It's interesting how often a certain group of men frequently feature photos of themselves in their underwear on Facebook. I've never posted a photo of myself with my whole bra on display, and neither have any of my female friends.

I wonder what the difference is?

Look, it's because you're one of those boring repressed pearl clutcher old fashioned types of woman.

Happily, one of the new improved Turbo-Cock 3000 special women can show you how to woman properly.

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 08/02/2023 10:42

ArabellaScott · 08/02/2023 09:48

I won't comment on this case given the person has been charged.

The public needs to have faith in the police and the judiciary, and to an extent, the media.

What will happen if people start to think that they can't trust the police to be honest, the judiciary to be impartial, and the media to report accurately?

This stuff erodes society. It's incredibly damaging, and not just to the Scottish government, but to the whole of our social structures - and to trans people.

We need honesty, openness and accountability. We also need logic and fairness.

Basically we need the people who are supposed to be governing, policing and reporting our society to do the jobs they are entrusted to do.

Unfortunately, I am already there.

I do not trust the police to be honest. How can I when they have protected dozens of rapists and predators in their ranks?

I do not trust the judiciary to be impartial. How can I when they force rape victims to call their rapist she and her?

I do not trust the media to report accurately. How can I when journalists like Hadley Freeman have told us that she was explicitly told women were not allowed to write on sex/gender issues while at the Guardian? While the BBC frequently displays pro-trans, anti-woman bias (recent example, Evan Davies on PM allowing two guests to tell his audience that JKR is transphobic and making zero attempt to refute the veracity of that accusation), apologizes for doing so when really caught out, but then does it again and again and again?

I want to be able to trust that the people who are supposed to be policing, governing and reporting are doing their jobs. But they aren't - we know they aren't - so how can I trust them?

FactsAreNotMean · 08/02/2023 11:13

scratchedbymycat · 08/02/2023 10:15

This arrest is different. By all accounts this person had been openly living as a TW for years, was part of the trans community, was accepted locally as a TW. They can't disown this one as a pretender. This might be the start of some people having to admit what we all know - that there are predatory individuals in every community and that you cannot, as Maggie Chapman has done, declare trans people as a whole to be safe.

Yes, this arrest is very different. Which makes the police referring to him as a man even more significant. How can Isla Bryson be a woman and Amy Grant be a man?

I'd love to know how far up in Police Scotland the statement went before it was released.

Ryder68 · 08/02/2023 11:15

@Beowulfa 😆

We inferior grade women definitely need to learn to be more stunning and brave.

ArabellaScott · 08/02/2023 11:51

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 08/02/2023 10:42

Unfortunately, I am already there.

I do not trust the police to be honest. How can I when they have protected dozens of rapists and predators in their ranks?

I do not trust the judiciary to be impartial. How can I when they force rape victims to call their rapist she and her?

I do not trust the media to report accurately. How can I when journalists like Hadley Freeman have told us that she was explicitly told women were not allowed to write on sex/gender issues while at the Guardian? While the BBC frequently displays pro-trans, anti-woman bias (recent example, Evan Davies on PM allowing two guests to tell his audience that JKR is transphobic and making zero attempt to refute the veracity of that accusation), apologizes for doing so when really caught out, but then does it again and again and again?

I want to be able to trust that the people who are supposed to be policing, governing and reporting are doing their jobs. But they aren't - we know they aren't - so how can I trust them?

Show quote history

Yes, exactly. As these issues repeatedly come to the surface, trust is increasingly eroded.

scratchedbymycat · 08/02/2023 12:33

I'd love to know how far up in Police Scotland the statement went before it was released.

The more I think about this, the more significant it seems. 'Amy' lived as a women for the last six years (I'm not sure if constant); his neighbours all knew he lived as a woman; his Facebook profiles list him as a woman etc, but the police have referred to him as a man...?

How is Sturgeon going to balance the books on this one? Is she going to rebuke the police for being transphobic? Is she going to go along with them? Is she going to contradict them and use 'the individual' instead?

Was this intentional by the police to force her into a position? Because it seems really odd that they'd say 'man' for someone who has lived as a woman for six years ... that's a LOT longer than the required GRR timeframe and it's three times as long as the current so-called ineffectual GRC 2004 time frame? It's a lot longer than Isla Bryson did.

RoyalCorgi · 08/02/2023 12:42

Was this intentional by the police to force her into a position? Because it seems really odd that they'd say 'man' for someone who has lived as a woman for six years ... that's a LOT longer than the required GRR timeframe and it's three times as long as the current so-called ineffectual GRC 2004 time frame? It's a lot longer than Isla Bryson did.

It's possible that the police took the temperature of public opinion and realised they risked making themselves look even more ridiculous if they referred to this particular man as a woman. Then again, it could be for the reason you say - anyone's guess at this stage.

FactsAreNotMean · 08/02/2023 12:52

I guess there's a few options really

  1. police defying Scottish Govt as they don't want to look fucking ridiculous
  2. police trying to hide the fact the suspect is trans for some reason
  3. Scottish Govt putting pressure on police to report it this way to keep things quiet
  4. rogue GC or other form of non-believer in the police who decided to just tell the truth
  5. the suspect identified themselves to the police as male
FannyCann · 08/02/2023 13:28

I think the occupation of the suspect is problematic for reporting. If only the individual was something boring like a shop assistant or librarian. But some people (who haven't properly read the details of the offence) might interpret butcher as referring to the crime rather than the occupation.
As a pp said, they often list occupation or refer to a person by occupation. But butcher who (allegedly) abducted a child is very poor optics and possibly a problem with respect to a fair trial. So it's back to man/woman then.
I suppose they could have stuck with woman, I don't think we know if there is a GRC but it sounds as if the person was "living as a woman" and accepted as such for quite a long time as noted upthread.
So it does seem odd that the police and then various media outlets have gone with man.
Possibly anticipating problems in the future should the person be convicted and a decision re ultimate prison destination was a factor?

Vebrithien · 08/02/2023 13:52

The BBC article now says "Andrew Miller, also known as Amy George".

Which is more than it said earlier.

Ndd135632 · 08/02/2023 13:58

Vebrithien · 08/02/2023 13:52

The BBC article now says "Andrew Miller, also known as Amy George".

Which is more than it said earlier.

The bbc are still truly captured. They are only doing this because they really are looking obviously partial because of other media.

scratchedbymycat · 08/02/2023 14:07

RoyalCorgi · 08/02/2023 12:42

Was this intentional by the police to force her into a position? Because it seems really odd that they'd say 'man' for someone who has lived as a woman for six years ... that's a LOT longer than the required GRR timeframe and it's three times as long as the current so-called ineffectual GRC 2004 time frame? It's a lot longer than Isla Bryson did.

It's possible that the police took the temperature of public opinion and realised they risked making themselves look even more ridiculous if they referred to this particular man as a woman. Then again, it could be for the reason you say - anyone's guess at this stage.

Hmmm ... does this mean, under Scotland's Hate Crime Bill that the police have committed a hate crime by misgendering 'the individual?

Thelnebriati · 08/02/2023 14:14

Is it misgendering if they don't have a GRC?

maltravers · 08/02/2023 14:15

Will this guy be remanded in a women’s or men’s prison if they are charged?