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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Girl abducted in Galashiels appears to have been held by transwoman

1000 replies

ArabellaScott · 07/02/2023 19:27

reduxx.info/scotland-crossdressing-butcher-arrested-in-case-of-missing-child/

Only source so far, but appears to be potentially corroborated by the Sun:

www.thesun.co.uk/news/21308457/cops-search-butchers-and-forensics-scour-for-evidence/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
65
ClaphamSouth · 09/02/2023 20:50

ScorchBeastQueen · 09/02/2023 20:30

Well now, I haven't been on mumsnet as a regular for years.

but with the odd bit of dipping my toe in here for read and seeing the shit storm and sunlight all over mainstream media (something years ago was only a dream)

imagine my surprise to see
"your on the wrong side of history" still being used! 🤣 I thought they'd given that one up a while ago.

"‘Feminazi’, ‘TERF’, ‘bitch’, ‘witch’.
Times change. Woman-hate is eternal."
twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1269401983095648259?s=20&t=-b-8pBGm6BkL4O-yZ3Wkwg

These MRAs all think they've got something new and original to say, but there's nothing new about what they're doing.

Girl abducted in Galashiels appears to have been held by transwoman
BaronMunchausen · 09/02/2023 21:01

@ismu "we can't posit everyone with a penis as a terrible danger to society. That's your son, partner, father, uncle... really? I feel that you just actually hate men".

Your implication seems to be that safeguarding via sex-segregated safe spaces is misandrist. This is on the extreme side of men’s rights activism and misogyny. All men ARE potential rapists - that obviously doesn’t mean that all men are rapists. Do you understand the distinction?

Someone who attaches themselves to a belief while refusing to engage in evidence-based debate about that belief, is pretty much the classic definition of ‘bigot’. And yet here you are, ironically smearing an entire group of people (feminists) as 'bigots' in lieu of engaging in reasoned argument.

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 09/02/2023 21:11

I would imagine it’s very normal for a women to love her dad/brother/uncle/grandad/son/nephew/male bff but still draw a line way before she’s inflicting her favourite chaps on random women in the female-only change area of the swimming baths.

Loving one’s grandad doesn’t mean you are compelled to invite him into the ladies lavatories.

TheBiologyStupid · 09/02/2023 21:26

[A]nd in fact in the case of children with DSD, they are encouraged to make their own decisions around this and self ID.

Indeed, @ismu , and quite rightly, too. But what proportion of trans-identifying individuals do you believe that that applies to? Such cases are so vanishingly small as to be totally irrelevant, but since you brought it up presumably you think otherwise, in which case I would love to see your evidence. And if I'm wrong in my presumption and you agree, then why did you mention it?

TheBiologyStupid · 09/02/2023 21:31

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 09/02/2023 20:11

@BellaAmorosa "... you develop a vagina because you are female, it's not that having a vagina confers femaleness on you."
Succinct and very useful explanation.

Agreed - that whole post was a brilliant exposition of the science Bella. Thanks!

picklemewalnuts · 09/02/2023 21:57

ismu · 09/02/2023 19:42

You are all so horrible on this thread. Comments about comedy bingo and your general refusal to even look at some of the evidence-it's an echo chamber for hating trans people, but really for hating men. As so called feminists, you're talking about defending women's rights but also saying that all men are potential rapists. You also refuse to accept changes to reproductive technology that might mean sex and gender become irrelevant- so you want men to provide sperm but then basically get out of women's spaces.

If we can't accept men in any context, what kind of a world do we envision?
The person who suggested healthcare separated into 3 genders.... wtaf???

But sweetheart you've not shown us any evidence!

The link you posted about two lesbians having IVF- you said it would blow our minds if one of them was a transwoman- well no it wouldn't. It's so much easier for two 'women' to have a baby if one of them is a trans woman. No donor or scientist needed, old fashioned methods will work nicely.

I'm sorry you think we're horrible. We can't agree with you because no matter how nice and kind we want to be, we cannot believe people can change sex because there isn't any evidence at all that it is true or ever could be.

We can have surgery to look a bit different (though I wish people wouldn't as it's not good for them). We can wear various clothes and shoes. We can't change the sex we were born as. Which I suppose is a shame.

I'm genuinely sad that you find this so unfathomable and frustrating. We aren't being deliberately obtuse.

Have you tried wondering whether we might have good reason for saying what we do? It's not to be nasty. It's not because we're bigoted old witches. It's because it's the only sensible way we can interpret what we know about the world. I can't agree with you on this, anymore than I could call a sharp knife a toy and give it to a toddler to play with.

It just won't wash.

Helleofabore · 09/02/2023 22:41

ismu · 09/02/2023 19:19

@BellaAmorosa I didn't refer to any particular study, I think you are confused, I did say there are plenty of medical developments. But I don't think anyone on here would actually accept anything I shared because they don't back up your worldview.
There are new ways babies can be made @ShireWifeofNigelFarage like this with 2 women

www.pfcla.com/blog/reciprocal-ivf-for-lesbian-couples

Gender and sex are not immutable

I am just reading back because I was actually busy and didn’t pay much attention to what was being written on this thread.

”I did say there are plenty of medical developments. But I don't think anyone on here would actually accept anything I shared because they don't back up your worldview.”

Do you understand that not everyone is like you and determined to not read and understand concepts and proven science that challenged their desired viewpoint? I suspect that many here answering you has read widely on the proven science around human sex categories. And gender.

You came on to this thread, you have made unfounded and having been on the end of them personally, vile, accusations. You expect anyone to respect a poster who does that? Really? Why? And really, how does that work for you in real life? Get much positive response?

You claim medical advances have been made. Completely based on misinformation you have gained from somewhere where obviously a group of people who all believe in ideological thinking have told you, possibly each other that this is all real science and wonderfully illustrative of how humans change sex.

You even have ‘legal’ sex wrong if the EHRC guidance is to be believed. Because, and this must be a surprise for you, some males with a GRC can still be excluded from being considered female!!! So, NO! Even that legal fiction is not quite what you want us to believe it is.

Effectively, you came onto this thread to lecture us and to shame us, using tactics that we have seen used by extreme trans rights activists. You make claims that we know some, maybe many, trans people don’t believe. But you are here attempting to shame posters on those trans people’s behalf.

Well done! You have shown you actually have nothing but That emotional manipulation and dishonest misinformation and misrepresentations. And you are really infuriated that people show it for what it is.

This is not a case of ‘you will just disagree with what I post’. We, posters on this thread and readers, DO read the evidence people post. We read and we critically analyse it. Something you don’t seem to have been able to do because if you had, you would know what the papers were that convinced you and posted them here.

So, no. Your ‘you will just not accept anything I shared’ is the usual cop out. Because I think you realised, we wouldn’t accept what you post because it is based on theories, wonderful expectations for the future (yes, some of us have them- still waiting for my hoverboard!) , and poorly argued and not evidenced work.

How bizarre to also then branch out into cloning and ‘everyone being able to have a baby’? I read Sci Fi too. But laws and society cannot be based on future scientific dreams. It must be based on what is provable now.

Not one human on this earth can change sex physically. Legally in the UK is limited. In fact, it is downright dangerous for any human male to present themselves at a hospital and insist they are a female. They are likely to cause significant harm to their body.

I think we can all see your deep prejudice against those who are fighting to strengthen the protections for women and children against the conflicts of another groups demands. Prejudice, not knowledge, has shaped your every post here.

Because I have not seen one iota of knowledge shared here by you.

Helleofabore · 09/02/2023 22:47

And yeah, still laughing at the hell of a bore joke. How original! Such an original personal attack from
someone who ended up presenting absolutely nothing but personal attack and negative generalisation.

Certainly no evidence to their claims…. I mean, you even questioned why you needed to produce evidence for your unbelievable claims? Like you believe people should just believe you because you portray yourself as righteous.

picklemewalnuts · 09/02/2023 22:58

Here you go, Helleofabore. BrewCake. I'm all out of chocolate, sadly. You sound like you need a pick me up.

MissingLesbianSpaces · 09/02/2023 23:00

Anyone who wouldn't welcome this delightful "woman" into a dressing room next to an eleven year old girl is clearly transphobic. (Sarcasm and anger)

Helleofabore · 09/02/2023 23:03

Hey thanks pickleme. Wonderful stuff, here 🍫I have chocolate we have share it too and wine 🍷if you’d like some too. We can have a feast.

I am just still bemused at the turn this thread took and I am mulling it over. Like I am prone to do.

Helleofabore · 09/02/2023 23:04

Can share it. … maybe I need more chocolate and not so much wine.

Coxspurplepippin · 09/02/2023 23:10

Can you imagine what the world would be like if people could actually change sex. Most some countries, where women are treated as second class citizens - women could just sex change their way out of oppression. No need to abort a female foetus, just wait 'til the baby's born and book them in for a sex change. What could possibly go wrong.

PSNonsense · 09/02/2023 23:12

Coxspurplepippin · 09/02/2023 23:10

Can you imagine what the world would be like if people could actually change sex. Most some countries, where women are treated as second class citizens - women could just sex change their way out of oppression. No need to abort a female foetus, just wait 'til the baby's born and book them in for a sex change. What could possibly go wrong.

Exactly. We need to tell the women of Afghanistan!

SinnerBoy · 09/02/2023 23:15

*ismu · Today 17:19

This kind of othering of anyone who disagrees is why Mumsnet is dying on it's feet. It used to be somewhere to debate robustly...

Laughing at stupendous I accuracies isn't othering. And it's difficult to have a robust debat with someone scientifically illiterate, let alone who mistakenly thinks that sex and gender are the same things.

Yes, those points are addressed directly to you.

picklemewalnuts · 09/02/2023 23:18

Coxspurplepippin · 09/02/2023 23:10

Can you imagine what the world would be like if people could actually change sex. Most some countries, where women are treated as second class citizens - women could just sex change their way out of oppression. No need to abort a female foetus, just wait 'til the baby's born and book them in for a sex change. What could possibly go wrong.

Totally. I still ponder how china could have a one child policy, have far too many boys, yet still undervalue women.

Weird.

Thanks Hellebore. Tonight requires significant chocolate consumption.

DameMaud · 09/02/2023 23:30

BellaAmorosa · 09/02/2023 19:54

FOR LURKERS:

"Intersex" is an old-fashioned and othering term. People living with DSDs are all either male or female - all DSDs are sex-specific. In the past, before sophisticated sexing techniques, a small percentage of the approximately 0.018% of babies who are born with DSDs were incorrectly thought to be the other sex because of the appearance of what seemed to be their genitals. In such cases, parents were advised to socialise their child as a boy or a girl depending on that appearance. Sometimes it became clear later on that the sex of the child had been wrongly guessed. Their sex had not changed in the meantime, it just became more obvious. (The condition that Caster Semenya has has a genetic component and is known locally as "penis at 12" because the penis only develops properly at puberty.) Some people elect to continue to present to society as the same sex in which they have been socialised, even if they are in fact the opposite sex. Those are the only cases where sex was /isassigned. Nobody assigns gender to any child.
We know the causes of DSDs. They include: nonstandard karyotypes (chromosome combinations), displacement of the SRY gene, insensitivity to certain enzymes. A karyotype is not a sex. Your chromosomes are evidence of your sex - as much as the primary and secondary sex characteristics, visual, smell and sound cues which enable humans to sex each other with close to 100% accuracy even when steps are taken to alter outward appearance.

Sex is binary and cannot be changed. It has never happened in mammals. That evolutionary possibility was closed off millions of years ago, before mammals evolved. Sexual reproduction means large gamete + small gamete = zygote -> foetus -> baby, all being well. Your sex is dictated by the SRY gene (almost always located on the Y chromosome) and it is the biological role which your phenotype plays in sexual reproduction (whether or not you choose to, or can, reproduce). The sex of a person decides which phenotype they have, and which hormones and enzymes are released in the womb and throughout their life. The hormones etc determine which sex organs will develop out of the undifferentiated tissue in a foetus and which will be suppressed. In other words, you develop a vagina because you are female, it's not that having a vagina confers femaleness on you. Having a vagina is excellent evidence of femaleness, not femaleness itself. Similarly, a wedding ring and a marriage certificate prove you are married, but if you lose your ring or burn your certificate, you are still married. It's just harder to prove that you are married. Stealing a wedding ring or forging a certificate will not change your marital status. A double mastectomy or a penile inversion make no difference to which sex you are - the breasts and penis are evidence of your sex, not your sex itself. Also note that though it's possible to remove a sex organ or characteristic, you cannot swap in a functioning version of an opposite sex organ or characteristic - because the phenotype is not set up for it. Vaginoplasty and phalloplasty do not create vaginas and penises.

There are only two sexes because sexual reproduction requires two types of gametes - small gametes and large gametes. The phenotype which is set up to produce large gametes is referred to as female and the other one is referred to as male. The development pathways of each phenotype are parallel, ie they never cross over or meet. The phenotypes resulting from these pathways may be imperfectly realised, but they are always one or the other - male or female -
because there are only two types of gamete.

This is marvellous. Thank you Bella

Slothtoes · 09/02/2023 23:44

Fantastic post BellaAmorosa

YetAnotherSpartacus · 09/02/2023 23:51

Yes, fantastic. Has it been archived in case this thread is pulled?

TheBiologyStupid · 10/02/2023 00:51

It has now: archive.ph/12Gy5

Justellingthetruth · 10/02/2023 02:24

@JemimaTiggywinkles

i find it terrible what you wrote.
Just trrrible

Justellingthetruth · 10/02/2023 02:26

@ismu

thank you

Happylittlechicken · 10/02/2023 03:36

Sensing belated wine, gin and cake for @Helleofabore and @BellaAmorosa amd all the lovely posters who put up with some of the absolute batshittery dealt by posters like @ismu . You can’t have any @ismu, you were mean. You get bread and water.

Sazzasez · 10/02/2023 06:54

PSNonsense · 09/02/2023 23:12

Exactly. We need to tell the women of Afghanistan!

It’s very cruel that the magical
unicorns or whoever it is that hits the newborn with the gender assigning wand keep on randomly assigning about half the babies in Afghanistan to be second-class citizens for life.

SinnerBoy · 10/02/2023 07:24

I'll vote for Bella's excellent and informative post, too. Bloody well done.

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