Maya’s response to Radical Notion’s GC divisions

[HiccupHorrendousHaddock]

I thought this was a very interesting answer to the recent issue of RN.

Shout out to the vipers and their Mumsnet Feminism within!

mforstater.medium.com/on-gender-critical-disputes-db2e456ad9cd

I agree. It’s not inherent, but it’s definitely there.

Leaving aside traditional clothing originating from nations and cultures outside of the UK, (which is male clothing anyway, even if it doesn’t have two separate legs in the bottom half) and there is, imo, 3 types of motivation for males to wear women’s clothing.

It might seem like a fag paper of a distinction but it really isn’t.

There is a stylishly non-conforming motive (like JCJ’s beloved Prince)
There is a sensory driven, I don’t give a stuff for societal conventions motive (often comes with a ND and can be very specific re: fabrics and colours)

And there is the disquieting, radar pinging ‘gender euphoria’ fetishy motive.

Trying to purposefully shut down that radar ping will put us and our daughters in danger and I’m horrified that a REAL FEMINIST would suggest it.

I don't think she's saying that. I think she's saying that she doesn't think any group of people should be venerated to the extent they are never mocked.

I agree with that sentiment, but she didn't say that. I think she's saying that we should have the choice (as a tool for activism) to mock the ridiculous and perverted versions some males exhibit. And that women shouldn't be criticized for choosing to mock some men if they feel it will move the needle forward.

Again, not saying I disagree with that as a tool, as Maya said, sometimes it's not prudent nor right for a situation, but I think she and JCJ disagree on this as a tactic.

Mocking perverts can rob them of their power, but, as many women know intuitively, it can backfire into violence. It's why I often feel there's a subconscious drive behind the #bekind crowd which feels like self-preservation. As a feminist leader, I'd hesitate to tell young women to "poke the beast" because I fear for their safety.

Again, really wish MM, KJK, Maya, RN, WDI, WP etc would hold a leadership summit and pool their resources. Show us that their divisions are smaller than our big agreements.

I can't help but read some of Maya's speech as defensive- and who can blame her-she's as human as the rest of us! But, still, there should be more olive branches among us than divisors.

I sometimes think it is like the boy pointing out the Emperor is naked, then everyone falls about laughing. A large part of it is relief. Laughing because you don’t have to pretend that something utterly ridiculous is dignified and worthy of deference any more.

God I wish Maya had just done that article as a post on the other thread!!

Hello fellow wifey!

You know at some point Nigel is going to discover he's a mumsnet husband of many.

How will he cope? Poor lamb.

It's why I often feel there's a subconscious drive behind the #bekind crowd which feels like self-preservation.

Yep. I think it’s an extension on fight or flight.

Freeze or fawn.

I saw a meme on the Grammys comparing Harry Styles's silver costume to Sam Smith's similar costume. It was mocking Sam Smith for "not wearing it well." While it might be mean, it's certainly falls under this category of "emperor's clothing." Harry is very attractive and acknowledges his manhood, and can pull off wild clothing and still look hot. Sam Smith just looks confused, pudgy and ridiculous. While the meme could be seen as a bit unfair (Styles is obviously genetically blessed), Sam Smith has chosen an identity that MUST NOT BE MOCKED. Everyone sees that Smith and Styles are wearing the same thing but only one of them looks good in it. The other is only getting praise because of an identity, not a quality.

@EndlessTea sorry, I was going to quote you on Emperor's Clothing in my Harry vs Sam thing. You're right about that sense of relief.

How can we be expected not to mock this?

Seriously? This was Smith’s red carpet arrival at the Grammies!

Them accessorised with extra humans ffs!

(Finally justifying a plural pronoun, I guess? 🤣)

WTF??

@Delphinium20

I agree with that sentiment, but she didn't say that. I think she's saying that we should have the choice (as a tool for activism) to mock the ridiculous and perverted versions some males exhibit. And that women shouldn't be criticized for choosing to mock some men if they feel it will move the needle forward.

You're right. Thank you!

As the kids say, them is very ‘extra’.

I think Maya’s saying when people are making ridiculous claims it’s ok to laugh and mock them for it.

” I am more of a woman than JRK will ever be,” claimed deranged fantasist born male.
Cue gales of laughter from the more tethered to reality among us.

”Look at me in girl mode,” says bewigged male pushing 60.
”Girl mode my arse,” laugh people of a similar vintage who actually were girls once.

Agreed. I think Maya has teased out the philosophical differences between the theorists and the mumsnet feminists, of which I am definitely one. Interested in patterns, ideas and science, political theories not so much.

I really haven't got the energy to spare for all the theorising and who is purer than who, and it's unbelievably boring anyway.

Men out of women's spaces. Right now, no time nor energy nor interest to spare for anything else.

This is basically me, too.

I could sit down and wade through all the theory again. But I cannot be bothered. My time is spent dissecting consultations, writing to my MP, preparing hard for the times when I get to meet my MP, and helping a small number of other women with IRL issues where I can, or with what might work with their letters and interactions with their schools.

I spent the max (£100?) on the first RN. I never thought I'd have much time to read it but, looking back fondly on the times I got copies of Spare Rib, I liked the idea very much and I wanted it to help get off the ground.

The times I have read it, I've just not had the brain space for it. And the latest outing was also too much. One of the footnotes indicated to me, that actual hours must have been spent, trawling the timeline of someone close to KJK, and even then there was no link to the original tweet so you too would then have to spend a lot of time finding the sources (the old academic in me winced). This was not the only footnote like that.

And I thought - THAT is luxury feminism. Pages and pages of rambling text with no proper citation, telling women off. I don't want RN to tank, but I won't be financially propping it up again either.

I guess I'm a mumsnet feminist who basically agrees with Maya here. I'm fine with that.

This is a cracking piece of writing and is certainly making my cogs whirl.

I do question the mocking piece. Pointing at men and saying they look ridiculous in women's clothes, just reinforces the idea that some clothes are reserved some some sexes. We cant say we want to shift that dial, but then point and laugh at those who are gender non conforming, but don't carry it off well for whatever reason.

yeah, this is about where I am. It takes clarity of thought to be clear on paper

any old dunderhead with enough spare time can produce pages and pages of flabby mess

and for once I thought Sam Smith looked pretty cool. I mean that Grammys outfit was a LOOK amirite? c'mon, he is a pop star

and I won't be putting my crocheting skills at Nigel's disposal

Pointing at men and saying they look ridiculous in women's clothes, just reinforces the idea that some clothes are reserved some some sexes.

But there are shades of this. And reality and basic common sense is at the forefront for most people over careful critical analysis.

I can see women in construction gear and Boy George in make up and think great. And I can also see someone in a furry costume, or with a beard and a tutu, and internally go 'and they look a complete tit'. Because there's a difference.

Aye, kink shaming is my kink! Be kind!

I'm mostly with Maya here. I cannot be bothered with intellectual pontification and I'm so clever look at all the big words I know crap whilst there are rapists in women's prisons, cross dressing males leading brownie and guide groups whilst insisting the girls call them Miss and blue haired teachers telling girls that if they're unhappy with a boy changing with them for swimming lessons that they're fucking bigots.

No. Academic and intellectual debate is a luxury most of us can't afford.

I think the red outfit looks pretty show biz

What a good read - and a pleasure to read in contrast to the self indulgent frankly bullying prose that's been served up as "feminist theory".