31 Jan 15:15 Women & Equalities Committee - Scottish GRR Bill

[GreenUp]

Tomorrow 31st Jan at 15:15 the UK Government's Women and Equalities Committee are holding an evidence gathering session in relation to the Scottish GRR Bill. We can watch on Parliament TV live.

The witnesses are:
Naomi Cunningham Barrister and member of legal feminist
Dr Michael Foran, Public Law lecturer at Glasgow University.
Lord Charlie Falconer Barrister
Robin White Barrister

committees.parliament.uk/event/17258/formal-meeting-oral-evidence-session/

One of the reasons given for applying for a GRC being currently so onerous is that it’s very intrusive

I expect having to explain to a doctor that your motivation for role playing as a woman is sexual arousal would feel pretty intrusive, no?

I would venture to suggest though that the problem here is the motivation of the applicant, not the gatekeeping questions

I don’t know. But I do know my Dd was put off attending a ‘get more women in Parliament’ event because at least two of the six were not biological women, even though they dressed as stereotypically women.

Obviously we’ve yet to see what the courts make of the situation but I’ve come to the conclusion that for trans activists it’s not really about spaces or “admin” or being buried “in the correct gender”. It’s about getting one over on women and it’s symbolic of society’s disdain for female people. Historically single sex spaces have been maintained through social convention. That has pretty much been dismantled now as far as I can see. Men are already using women’s spaces and there’s not a lot we can do to prevent it. The laws are already against us on this and self ID just feels like the final nail in the coffin. So I think in reality the main benefit of self ID is that it will be such a massive blow to so many women. It’s basically a symbolic punch in the face.

My last PIP assessment was nearly 200 pages long and contained countless consultants and doctors letters, test results, etc.

I had to tell the most personal intimate things in that form, as anyone who had ever applied for disability benefits will attest, and I once got refused and had to go all the way to Tribunal and explain to judge in court why I was worthy of benefits.

I live in constant fear that the DWP could turn my life upside down next time I'm due for renewal. Nothing will have changed, but I'll have to collect all new evidence to prove it. It will require me to get someone else to put it all together for me, which means someone non medical will now know everything.

And i will have to do this every few years for the rest of my life.

And some people can't even be arsed to do less work for something that they never have to do again!

fuck me!

My last PIP assessment was nearly 200 pages long and contained countless consultants and doctors letters, test results, etc.

What, you mean biology was relevant? Whowuddathought?

Charlie is a total misogynist windbag. Michael was excellent, Naomi was fantastic.

I'm confused.

Robin said in the latest committee that the reason for not getting a GRC was wanting to wait for the new process that May had announced.

But said in a previous committee that the reason for not getting one was not wanting one (because it's irrelevant and might cause problems for other people).

Is that right?

I know Right! And it's not just can you pick up a £1 coin? Vann you coming the stairs Type questions

I mean for some people filling in the PIP form they have to get down to the level of detail of wether or not you need someone to insert a tampon when you are on your period, and how many times do you shit yourself.

But some people won't put up with being a bit of embarrassment about telling someone they don't know, will never have to see again, and who won't be telling anyone publicly what you said, about why they think they are the opposite sex?

Hmmmm.

I'll draw my own conclusions.

Ugh can you climb the stairs

Proper, rigorous process also impedes wrongdoers in the gatekeeping role who would be quite happy to facilitate other males’ access to children, women and vulnerable adults by waving them through.

But some people won't put up with being a bit of embarrassment about telling someone they don't know, will never have to see again, and who won't be telling anyone publicly what you said, about why they think they are the opposite sex?

And they only have to tell this to a couple of medical professionals who then write a report for the GRA panel to confirm the diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

just listening again now (only half listened yesterday)

Robin says 1 person in 704 is s trans according to the census but this is likely to be an underestimate…

Well, looking at some secondary schools it must be a whopping underestimate, because at 1 in 704 most high schools would only have 1 or 2 transgender pupils max…

… but at least 10% of my stepdaughter’s school year (last year’s GCSE cohort, so kids born 2005-2006) identified as trans (almost all female).
None of these would’ve been included in the census transgender count because they were under 16 at the time.

I realise that these teen trans numbers vary school to school and region to region (see: Blackpool) but how on earth would ‘trans experts’ like Robin account for 70plus ‘trans kids’ in single school when the statistics suggest there should be 1-3?
Especially when you take into consideration all the late transitioning males?

Plotted on a graph, is there a plateau between the number of trans people under the age of 25 and then another upwards climb in the numbers of trans people over the age of 40? What does that data look like when sorted by sex?

(resists the urge to make a snarky joke re that oft misappropriated statistic re: average age of murdered, prostituted transsexual males in South America)

Exactly. So why wouldn't you?.

I would if it was me in that position. Do it once, done and dusted, doesn't have to be on your mind. You're now exactly what you wanted to be, legally.

Honestly if getting PIP for life, like my sodding DLA was, meant undergoing a week in a facility undergoing whatever degrading test they wanted. Answering any and all questions they wanted and I never had to do it again. I'd be there like a shot.

Yep, and you can pay £300 to the doctor and get the diagnosis report done in an hour.

I know someone who's been though the interviews process to get permission marry someone who's not a UK citizen, and another who was vetted to join the Foreign Office (or possibly the 'Foreign Office' <wink>).

Both were exceptionally intrusive - including in the latter case very detailed interviews with other people, not just the applicant.

So technically, you don't even have to prove it prove it like PIP. There are no test results to show.

Anyone could say anything to the professionals for the GRC and if you sound and act convincing enough (some may even have equity cards as they are actors for Christ said,) you could get the relevant proof quite easily.

I could do a bloody good impression of being well if I needed to for a few hours, with some extra tablets, here or there. It would fuck me for a month each time, but I could.

So why not just do it?

I would imagine that some are prevented by the spousal exit clause?

Some people, for whatever reason (religion, finances, whatever) never divorce, even if they permanently separate.
In these circumstances, if the wife won’t agree to be in a lesbian marriage she never signed up for (or the husband won’t agree to a gay marriage he never signed up for) a GRC is unobtainable. The marriage must be dissolved if the spouse does not officially agree.

The proposed new style GRC doesn’t ask for spousal permission.

Seven Hex has said he doesn’t think historical birth records should be retrospectively tampered with and thus has never wanted a GRC. He wrote a blog about it, might still be online somewhere.

Interestingly, Adam Graham is legally married but had done a runner, leaving his wife (very short marriage) unable to serve divorce papers.
Being married would’ve prevented Graham from changing his birth certificate, so even if he’d managed to get to two years of gas bills addressed to ‘Annie’ or ‘Isla’ AND get his paperwork signed off by the GRC panel before the rape charge became a conviction.

He would’ve gotten stuck at the ‘interim GRC’ stage, due to the spousal clause.

@NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.

I don't think I have an issue with drivers licence, passport once you have the legal documents to do so. But I do believe that birth and death, unless there was an actual factual error on the original, everybody can make a mistake when filling in forms every day, shouldn't change though.

There is no need for them to. We have law that prevent against discrimination that would apply if not treated equally. But that's as much as I'm willing to give up of being a woman as that change to legal documents doesn't, as far as I'm aware, have any material effect on the lives of women.

There's no need for any of the other things, sexes are segregated and given different rights, at times for good reasons. Those reasons still exist and whilst they do then women should be free to do things with just women.

He would’ve gotten stuck at the ‘interim GRC’ stage, due to the spousal clause.

Didn't seem to stop him trying which leads me to believe they know men can get in without any grcs etc.

💡💡💡💡

Yes!

It must be it!

It seems really weird that they keep banging on about intrusive questions, when you never hear about disabled people complaining about how intrusive it is to get registered disabled and apply for DLA. Having to answer questions about continence and getting in and out of the bath is pretty intrusive, as is having to give account of your mental health.

BBM

That is most enlightening.

The purpose of the assessment must be about trying to eliminate people wanting a GRC for purely erotic or criminal purposes.

They don’t talk about that. Just claiming it is so humiliating having to provide copies of your bank statements and bills, to show you have changed names, pronouns and honorifics, really quite minimal stuff. The ‘long, drawn-out, intrusive, complicated process’ claims sound so hyperbolic when they give any examples about what it entails.

Even Fat Tony boasted about how easy it is to get one.

The purpose of the assessment must be about trying to eliminate people wanting a GRC for purely erotic or criminal purposes.

There is value in having psychiatric assessment, because not everyone should be referred on...

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-psychiatrist/article/gender-reassignment-5-years-of-referrals-in-oxfordshire/6B5F217162ABD9B3189F2EB82787034E

"Reasons for non-referral to a specialist centre included being deemed not ready for transitioning (either determined by the individual or because the person was not currently living in the desired gender role), being homosexual but not having gender identity disorder, having an autism-spectrum disorder with a significant degree of impairment such that the real-life experience criterion was not met, and seeking gender reassignment to facilitate or normalise paedophilia. This latter small group described gender reassignment as a means by which to increase their intimate contact with children, which they viewed to be more socially acceptable in a female role.

Well, well, well.