31 Jan 15:15 Women & Equalities Committee - Scottish GRR Bill

[GreenUp]

Tomorrow 31st Jan at 15:15 the UK Government's Women and Equalities Committee are holding an evidence gathering session in relation to the Scottish GRR Bill. We can watch on Parliament TV live.

The witnesses are:
Naomi Cunningham Barrister and member of legal feminist
Dr Michael Foran, Public Law lecturer at Glasgow University.
Lord Charlie Falconer Barrister
Robin White Barrister

committees.parliament.uk/event/17258/formal-meeting-oral-evidence-session/

MPs had to go and vote

Ahh. Will they be back?

Caroline Wokes is mad as hell that Westminster has blocked her plot to get self id in under the radar. She’s not the sharpest tool in the box to be honest and has found it impossible to understand the arguments and reverts to ‘let’s all be kind (apart from to women)’ in the face of any challenge. Kemi Badenoch is light years ahead of her.

Yes

Joined just before they broke to vote in the chamber.

Has anyone explained yet why it is they think "living in [an] acquired gender" is provable or definable in any way at all? I keep wondering it it's me being stupid here, or is the big secret that they actually all think that being female is about lipstick and high heels? From the brief exchange between Foran and Falconer it seemed it simply boils down to changing your pronoun on your gas bill?

From the brief exchange between Foran and Falconer it seemed it simply boils down to changing your pronoun on your gas bill?

That's my impression and LF thinking that a statutory declaration is an adequate safeguard against bad faith actors.

Falconer's argument here is out of touch with how small (and even large) organisations work. He's trying to say that a GRC wont affect an org's ability to still keep services single sex. But which orgs are really going to take the significant legal and cost risk of not just allowing the GRC to overrule any notion of sex equality. I mean, increasing numbers of places in England have already done that, without the new scottish GRC!!!

I thought that service providers aren't allowed to ask for sight of a GRC so it would be impossible to know whether it was issued in Scotland or elsewhere? Lord Faulker seems to think people would be able to see the certificate.

I thought Foran was very good on that. THe supposed risk of breaching the statutory declaration is zero as it is close to impossible to prove

Surely any seahorses having babies have completely flouted their GRC 'oath'??

Are they going to see 10 years jail time??

Isn't it 'illegal' to ask to see someone's GRC?

So, what's to stop any old fella saying he fucking has one??

Same here. I could watch but it wouldn’t do my blood pressure much good. How the amazing Maya, Helen and all the other wonderful women fighting on our behalf handle the stress I do not know but I’m so grateful to them.

That Robin lying about most Rape Crisis Centres are trans inclusive. Most RCC operate the SSE. Some Rape Crisis Centre additionally offer services to men and trans people.

Just changed my minds about Michael!

Oh dear Naomi betraying women again. I wish these campagners who have only recently realised there is an issue actually talked to women who operate women's services.

Has she ever been in touch with Rape Crisis Centres.

They are very short of time, but RMW and LF speak v e r y s l o w l y compared to Michael Foran

Cunningham makes a really interesting point there: The GRC says nothing about the person's risk (eg to women) and so in theory SHOULDNT influence decisions about access to single sex spaces. But she also explains that in practice, organisations are scared of legal come back, so they act as if a GRC somehow indicates safety (or some other relevant factor to proportionate single sex spaces) when in fact it does not. The problem is that we have had almost a decade of the organisations charged with setting out guidance on the equality act going far, far beyond what the law actually says. So it kind of doesnt matter if NC is right on the point of law - we dont seem to have the civil servants to make that the practice.

Yes he was. I was thinking of Lord Faulkner, hope I haven't muddled my initials.

Can I get this on Freeview?

Am watching on bbc parliament and,its about non dom tax status.

I am just a bog standard person on the street, but I thought Lady Haldane said that sex wasn't just legal sex because there were some circumstances where it was obvious that biological sex was meant.

No idea, but I got to it via the link in the OP

The SSE aren't about risk. They are about preserving the right of women not to be traumatised by the presence of men.

The arguement for SS Services were not conceived because violent men might infiltrate but about accepting that in some circumstances one's biological sex means whatever it is, health threatment, consuling, etc., are better for women provided in single sex services.

And I repeat most women's groups eg WA and RCC operate single sex services.

It is only in Scotland that some groups no longer do that.

ah, yeah. I missed that. Cunningham's point is very narrow on this then

From the Haldane Judgement

[53] For all of the foregoing reasons, I conclude that in this context, which is the meaning
of sex for the purposes of the 2010 Act, “sex” is not limited to biological or birth sex, but
includes those in possession of a GRC obtained in accordance with the 2004 Act stating their
acquired gender, and thus their sex. Such a conclusion does not offend against, or give rise
to any conflict with, legislation where it is clear that “sex”means biological sex. Mr O’Neill
referred to the example of the Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences)
32
(Scotland) Act 2021 where references to the sex of the forensic medical examiner can only
mean, read fairly, that a victim should have access to an examiner of the same biological sex
as themselves. I agree. There are no doubt many other such examples. That does not give
rise to the inevitable conclusion, as was urged upon me, that “sex” in the present context
must mean the same thing as it does in others. A rigid approach in this context is neither
mandated by the language of either statute nor consistent with their respective aims and
purposes.

Link

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/51327088-eab0-4bf7-ad5e-35e472b969f8

Did it just disconnect for anyone else?

Thus the founding principle is a broad one, that the acquired gender becomes the person’s sex “for all purposes” subject to any other enactments, or the statutory exceptions listed.

www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2022csoh90.pdf?sfvrsn=8eee302c_1

Lady Haldane made it quite clear that the existing exemptions still apply.