Page 3 | Radio four Today!!

Nicedayout22 · 2023-01-30T07:55:42+00:00

About 7.50, former governor of the Scottish women's prison : treat yourself to a listen!! Then a weasel MSP

ScrollingLeaves · 30/01/2023 10:06

ResisterRex · Today 09:45

^littlbrowndog · Today 09:25
This is one of the guys in SPS who helped with the policy^.

^Sex offender
Sex offender helped set prison trans rules^
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/99883ac4-f5ae-11e8-b7ef-da439ffb05ca?shareToken=f96999caaf264621902dcea823dc2a08

Basically someone who is so interested in putting men into women’s prisons is, in my opinion, invested through something wrong within themselves. Otherwise they would argue for a safe separate place for transwomen.

Isn’t there a list on mumsnet somewhere of certain men, who’ve pushed for certain contentious trans rights, who’ve turned out later to be paedophiles, or linked to them? I wonder if anyone can remember.

As to this quote below , will Paris Green go in a women’s prison after the private gender reassignment-assignment surgery, even after raping with a rolling pin, torturing, and killing a man?

The prison policy, which also covers healthcare, is being used by a transgender sex offender and murderer, Paris Green, to make a 900-mile round trip from her Edinburgh prison to Sussex for private gender reassignment surgery, funded by taxpayers.

Green is serving life after she and two accomplices sexually assaulted a man with a rolling pin, tied him up, tortured him and beat him to death.

Signalbox · 30/01/2023 10:11

As to this quote below , will Paris Green go in a women’s prison after the private gender reassignment-assignment surgery, even after raping with a rolling pin, torturing, and killing a man?

From what KB was saying the SPS could potentially risk assess this person as being no risk to women as no history of violence towards women.

OldCrone · 30/01/2023 10:12

Tidyspy · 30/01/2023 09:34

Whenever the line about the problem being “predatory men”, not TW, I always want the interviewer to ask how can anyone tell which male people are predatory are which are not.

I’ve never heard this asked (apart from my own voice shouting at the radio/TV). This is what it all hangs on - there being a magical way to tell who is who, which of course there isn’t and which is why single sex spaces exist and decent men stay out of women’s.

They really do need to ask this.

Since a 'transwoman' is any man who says he is, and we can't tell which men are predatory until they actually do something which shows that they are, how do we tell the difference between a 'transwoman' (who is as likely to be predatory as any other male) and a predatory man?

FOJN · 30/01/2023 10:13

FlossieF · 30/01/2023 08:55

Also discussed with Anneliese Dodds at around 6.51 am. She properly dodged a clear question from the presenter and blamed it all on the conservatives failing to produce clear guidance.

Anneliese Dodds can fuck off. The job of the opposition is to hold the government to account. If the Labour Party had thought that clear guidance was needed they could have said so but they've been far to busy bullying their own MP's who have expressed concern on the issue.

BellaAmorosa · 30/01/2023 10:17

MTCoffeePot · 30/01/2023 09:26

I wonder if a legal case fought on behalf of women prisoners in jails where these men are being sent would be successful.
I'm thinking about Elizabeth Fry's campaign for sex segregation in prisons amongst other welfare concerns in the early 19th century. We seem to have been going backwards in the last 10 years, but there's a glimmer of light.

Alice Edwards, the UN Rapporteur against torture (yes, torture, that's how bad this is) has opined on Twitter that imprisoning women with male sex offenders breaches their right under Article 3 of the human rights convention not to be tortured. I can't remember if male offenders generally were covered but I can't see why they wouldn't be given the potential for sexual violence. Interestingly, this Article 3 right is an absolute right, so can't be balanced against the rights of others; it imposes a positive obligation on the state to take steps to ensure it; and the state in question is the UK. So legal action at that level could eradicate male offenders in women's prisons and set a precedent for the world. I don't know how likely it is to happen, though. Very expensive, probably intermediate legal action would have to be taken first.

Wanderingowl · 30/01/2023 10:21

AlliwantforChristmasisgu · 30/01/2023 09:09

Does anyone else remember, probably 8-10 years ago, a similar but opposite storm when a transwoman was placed in a men’s prison? I don’t remember the specifics but I think the person in question had had breast augmentation surgery and so superficially looked like a woman. I remember listening to Radio 4 at the time and wondering why on earth people were demanding that this person was placed in a female prison. I think the story was news for about a week and ended up with the person being housed in the female estate.

While I am delighted the tide is turning, the media could have asked questions much earlier.

With comparisons being made to Laverne Cox' character in Orange is the New Black.

IcakethereforeIam · 30/01/2023 10:29

There have been rapes and pregnancies in female prisons in other countries (certainly the US and Canada) due to this policy. As grateful as I am for Alice Edwards speaking up about Scotland, has she said anything about the other places where this is happening? Has she done anything about the other places where this is happening?

PoliticalFootball · 30/01/2023 10:32

I infuriatingly know people who think this 'prison Stuff' is just being weaponised to deprive trans people of their rights. Dismissing how long this campaign has been ongoing (see the Fair Play for Women link above from 2017). And dismissing the whole 'how do we know when someone is a genuine transwoman or a predatory male?' Should there still be exceptional instances where we segregate on sex? Or build third spaces as a compromise?

I really hope the issue is discussed on Question Time. I think it's Glasgow this week. I'm dreading who'll be on the panel though - Karen Adam? Annaliese Dodds? Douglas Ross?

IcakethereforeIam · 30/01/2023 10:34

I saw a joke (?) about QT, they can't discuss it unless they have a rapist on the panel.

WarriorN · 30/01/2023 10:50

Severe lack of coverage on woman's hour.

Signalbox · 30/01/2023 10:50

So there are still violent TW in the female estate in Scotland. I knew KB was using his words suspiciously carefully. What a devious answer to a straightforward question...

Kate Colman on LBC.

Violent murderers Alex Stewart and Daniel (Sophie) Eastwood still in women's prisons.

twitter.com/LBC/status/1619978544330821633

Signalbox · 30/01/2023 10:51

*Coleman

WarriorN · 30/01/2023 10:51

IcakethereforeIam · 30/01/2023 10:34

I saw a joke (?) about QT, they can't discuss it unless they have a rapist on the panel.

KK of triggernometry wanted to discuss the prison issue but was told there were no lgbtq people on the panel so they couldn't.

Stuff the women obviously.

WarriorN · 30/01/2023 10:53

To all intents and purposes, transwomen are indivisible from men.

That was a joy to hear on the bbc.

IcakethereforeIam · 30/01/2023 10:55

Yes @WarriorN I saw that too, I suspect that's what the joke was referencing. 'No debate' has got more lives than Jason, just when you think it's finally dead...

MoirasSaggyBundles · 30/01/2023 11:02

Another excellent interview from last night's Free Speech Nation with Keep Prisons Single Sex director, Kate Coleman. And an in-depth one at that. So refreshing not to be the last item in the agenda and cut off before it's even got going, a la most BBC coverage:

BewareTheMonstrousRegiment · 30/01/2023 11:25

I reject the issue as simply being as to whether a man is predatory or not. What happened to a woman's right to privacy and dignity? I completely reject all demands from transwomen (and their allies) for access to women only spaces.

No men, no matter how meek and mild they might be should be permitted in women only spaces!!

GlomOfNit · 30/01/2023 11:32

MoirasSaggyBundles · 30/01/2023 09:01

Rhona Hodgekiss's interview answers (read out in statement form by a producer) for posterity:

When I was governor of Corton Vale, around 2017, there was a suggestion that Tiffany Scott might be transferred to us. He was being held in a male prison and had been for some time. He was known to be violent and very difficult to manage, posing an ongoing threat to staff and other prisoners.

I was appalled at the thought of him being held with the women at Corton Vale. Many women in prison are amongst the most vulnerable people I have ever met, and this person would have terrified them. My immediate reaction was to say, "Over my dead body was he coming here." Shortly after that, he was involved in some other incident, and stayed at a male prison in segregation. The idea of moving him to Corton Vale wasn't raised again.

In my view, informed by my experiences with other trans women I met in prison, and the impact that they had on the women around them, they should never be held in women's prisons. I think what needs to be understood is that, to all intents and purposes, transwomen are indivisible from men. The argument goes that they are vulnerable in men's prisons - but there are groups of men whom that could also be said about, and they are held quite successfully within protection units within the male estate. No-one would suggest, for example, that convicted police officers be held in a female prison.

I was cheering loudly while listening to this impressive, straightforward and compassionate woman! Thank god for women like her, who aren't cowed by the current culture in Scotland.

FrancescaContini · 30/01/2023 11:38

BewareTheMonstrousRegiment · 30/01/2023 11:25

I reject the issue as simply being as to whether a man is predatory or not. What happened to a woman's right to privacy and dignity? I completely reject all demands from transwomen (and their allies) for access to women only spaces.

No men, no matter how meek and mild they might be should be permitted in women only spaces!!

The question as to whether a male prisoner is predatory or not has already been answered in the recent case of the rapist: he’s a rapist. Ergo he’s a predator. That’s why he needs to be in prison. AWAY from women.

It’s actually very simple.

FrancescaContini · 30/01/2023 11:39

And I agree with your general point, @BewareTheMonstrousRegiment

terryleather · 30/01/2023 11:59

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but MBM had a Twitter thread yesterday concerning the SPS and the the equality impact assessment undertaken on their trans prisoner policy. I've skimmed through it and this jumped out at me:

“...There are people in prison for transphobic crimes”. Mitigation: “SPS have a duty of care and will take steps. A trans person should not have any contact or be in the same location at any time with a person who has been charged or sentenced to a transphobic crime"

twitter.com/mbmpolicy/status/1619670133659799552?s=20&t=D1E2bePVZbHKtv2__CYtIg

But fuck the women in the female estate who have been victims of male violence and who are vulnerable to it if males are housed with them, well, it doesn't fucking matter about them does it, they weren't given a second thought throughout the entire exercise.

It is absolutely maddening. No Men in women's prisons. Ever.

MissLawls · 30/01/2023 12:00

And Labour, as David Blunkett said last week, are all over the place on this. How anyone thinks Keir Starmer is a decent leader, especially with his complete non support of Rosie Duffield, is beyond me.

Starmer is not a decent leader. He's not even a leader. He's very much a lead. He's the one who rushes after a crowd in the street yelling, "There go my people! I must find out what they want so I can lead them!"

JemimaTiggywinkles · 30/01/2023 12:17

Starmer is by no means perfect, but he's a lot better than the other potentials were in the last Labour leadership election. He at least had the awareness that things are actually a bit nuanced. Was it Nandy who said rapist TW should be in women's prisons?

ResisterRex · 30/01/2023 12:22

I'd prefer to have someone like Nandy. Someone who nails their colours to the TWAW mast. At least then, everyone would know what the position is and apart from Starmer's bizarre hostage video, all we've had since is dodging and ducking from the current crop of MPs.

IcakethereforeIam · 30/01/2023 12:29

terryleather · 30/01/2023 11:59

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but MBM had a Twitter thread yesterday concerning the SPS and the the equality impact assessment undertaken on their trans prisoner policy. I've skimmed through it and this jumped out at me:

“...There are people in prison for transphobic crimes”. Mitigation: “SPS have a duty of care and will take steps. A trans person should not have any contact or be in the same location at any time with a person who has been charged or sentenced to a transphobic crime"

twitter.com/mbmpolicy/status/1619670133659799552?s=20&t=D1E2bePVZbHKtv2__CYtIg

But fuck the women in the female estate who have been victims of male violence and who are vulnerable to it if males are housed with them, well, it doesn't fucking matter about them does it, they weren't given a second thought throughout the entire exercise.

It is absolutely maddening. No Men in women's prisons. Ever.

What would happen if the women confined with these blokes, conspired together to commit a transphobic crime? Say a mass misgendering-in, something nonviolent obviously.

By their own lights the women or the tw would have to be moved.

I suspect what would actually happen is that the women would be punished. The tw would stay exactly where they are and would probably be awarded compensation.