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Original poster

Radio four Today!!

126 replies

Nicedayout22 · 30/01/2023 07:55

About 7.50, former governor of the Scottish women's prison : treat yourself to a listen!! Then a weasel MSP

OP posts:
LizzieSiddal · 30/01/2023 09:10

FlossieF · Today 08:55
Also discussed with Anneliese Dodds at around 6.51 am. She properly dodged a clear question from the presenter and blamed it all on the conservatives failing to produce clear guidance.

Well I do think Dodds has a point here. It’s almost as if the Cons deliberately let this whole thing get out of control (women and girls being cannon fodder).

RudsyFarmer · 30/01/2023 09:12

Are you seriously telling me that every man in Scotland that commits a crime and receives a custodial sentence can decide on sentencing which jail he goes to just by uttering the words ‘I’m a woman!’ That’s seriously the legislation they’ve voted for? Why on earth do they assume that men wouldn’t do this to be housed in a women’s jail? Of course they would!!!

ScrollingLeaves · 30/01/2023 09:13

MoirasSaggyBundles· Today 09:01
Rhona Hodgekiss's interview answers (read out in statement form by a producer) for posterity:….,

Re what R H said, it makes such sense. I hope it keeps getting repeated or referred to, especially what she says here:

In my view, informed by my experiences with other trans women I met in prison, and the impact that they had on the women around them, they should never be held in women's prisons. I think what needs to be understood is that, to all intents and purposes, transwomen are indivisible from men. The argument goes that they are vulnerable in men's prisons - but there are groups of men whom that could also be said about, and they are held quite successfully within protection units within the male estate. No-one would suggest, for example, that convicted police officers be held in a female prison.*

To all intents and purposes, transwomen are indivisible from men.

ExiledElsie · 30/01/2023 09:15

No, I got that wrong. She said it in a pre-recorded podcast aired last Friday:

“But there are people who have opposed this bill that cloak themselves in women's rights to make it acceptable, but just as they're transphobic you'll also find that they're deeply misogynist, often homophobic, possibly some of them racist as well.”

She's unbelievable, those really are thought terminating clichés, aren't they? Just slurs of "they are bad people" so that she doesn't have to argue any actual points.

Signalbox · 30/01/2023 09:17

AlliwantforChristmasisgu · 30/01/2023 09:09

Does anyone else remember, probably 8-10 years ago, a similar but opposite storm when a transwoman was placed in a men’s prison? I don’t remember the specifics but I think the person in question had had breast augmentation surgery and so superficially looked like a woman. I remember listening to Radio 4 at the time and wondering why on earth people were demanding that this person was placed in a female prison. I think the story was news for about a week and ended up with the person being housed in the female estate.

While I am delighted the tide is turning, the media could have asked questions much earlier.

Tara Hudson.

amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/20/tara-hudson-transgender-prisoner-sues-government

Signalbox · 30/01/2023 09:19

LizzieSiddal · 30/01/2023 09:10

FlossieF · Today 08:55
Also discussed with Anneliese Dodds at around 6.51 am. She properly dodged a clear question from the presenter and blamed it all on the conservatives failing to produce clear guidance.

Well I do think Dodds has a point here. It’s almost as if the Cons deliberately let this whole thing get out of control (women and girls being cannon fodder).

It is ultimately the fault of the Conservatives. They could have dealt with this and haven’t done so. They even fought a JR case didn’t they against a female prisoner who was demanding sex segregated prisons.

FlossieF · 30/01/2023 09:21

True - but the question was whether labour agrees with the proposed policy that no transwomen with male genitalia should be held in the women's estate. She didn't answer that. Apparently labour has continually said that service providers need clarity from the government on how to use the exemptions in the equality act. Is that true?

GrabbyGabby · 30/01/2023 09:21

I was very struck by his insistence at what an amazing job the SPS do. I think he repeated it 4 times at least. I would bet my bottom dollar that there are notes from meetings that the SPS thought that this was a shit show in the making, but the SNP forced it through, saying if there was any fall out the SPS would not shoulder the blame.

Signalbox · 30/01/2023 09:21

Although the SPS is probably devolved so perhaps there is nothing the Tories could do in terms of Scottish policy.

AlliwantforChristmasisgu · 30/01/2023 09:23

Thank you @Signalbox. That is the one. I remember the media storm in 2015 and thinking 'ah yes, a man who has headbutted a barman. Why should that person go to a female prison?'.

But this clearly shows the problem with 'case by case'. It would be legal (as I think the High Court has ruled) to have a blanked seingle sex policy for prisons. But sadly, women are seen as acceptable collateral damage and so this policy has not been chosen.

ResisterRex · 30/01/2023 09:23

Apparently labour has continually said that service providers need clarity from the government on how to use the exemptions in the equality act.

If they have then I've missed it. I would imagine Labour HQ saying to Dodds: "just say the government should produce guidance, just say the government should produce guidance, just say the government should produce guidance. Got that? Now don't fuck it up"

Elsanore · 30/01/2023 09:23

GrabbyGabby · 30/01/2023 09:21

I was very struck by his insistence at what an amazing job the SPS do. I think he repeated it 4 times at least. I would bet my bottom dollar that there are notes from meetings that the SPS thought that this was a shit show in the making, but the SNP forced it through, saying if there was any fall out the SPS would not shoulder the blame.

Yes- I noticed that too.

A bit of a side point, but why has the SNP latched onto trans issues in such a massive way? Why the big focus on that. Surely Scotland has other issues that affect more people.

littlbrowndog · 30/01/2023 09:25

This is one of the guys in SPS who helped with the policy. Sex offender

Radio four Today!!
MTCoffeePot · 30/01/2023 09:26

I wonder if a legal case fought on behalf of women prisoners in jails where these men are being sent would be successful.
I'm thinking about Elizabeth Fry's campaign for sex segregation in prisons amongst other welfare concerns in the early 19th century. We seem to have been going backwards in the last 10 years, but there's a glimmer of light.

Signalbox · 30/01/2023 09:28

FlossieF · 30/01/2023 09:21

True - but the question was whether labour agrees with the proposed policy that no transwomen with male genitalia should be held in the women's estate. She didn't answer that. Apparently labour has continually said that service providers need clarity from the government on how to use the exemptions in the equality act. Is that true?

Lol is this where we ask for “receipts”?

All I’ve ever heard labour say is “we support safe spaces for women” but then being unable to define what a woman is.

MoirasSaggyBundles · 30/01/2023 09:28

FlossieF · 30/01/2023 09:21

True - but the question was whether labour agrees with the proposed policy that no transwomen with male genitalia should be held in the women's estate. She didn't answer that. Apparently labour has continually said that service providers need clarity from the government on how to use the exemptions in the equality act. Is that true?

My 12 year old son could work out where to put a male criminal in a frock, without needing government guidance on the EqA. It's just a load of Stonewall captured institutions, too afraid to make decisions that contradict their master's bidding. And Labour, as David Blunkett said last week, are all over the place on this. How anyone thinks Kier Starmer is a decent leader, especially with his complete non support of Rosie Duffield, is beyond me.

Signalbox · 30/01/2023 09:30

MTCoffeePot · 30/01/2023 09:26

I wonder if a legal case fought on behalf of women prisoners in jails where these men are being sent would be successful.
I'm thinking about Elizabeth Fry's campaign for sex segregation in prisons amongst other welfare concerns in the early 19th century. We seem to have been going backwards in the last 10 years, but there's a glimmer of light.

Already happened and failed.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prison-policy-judicial-review-ruling-confirms-trans-rights-do-conflict-with-womens-rights/

Tidyspy · 30/01/2023 09:34

Whenever the line about the problem being “predatory men”, not TW, I always want the interviewer to ask how can anyone tell which male people are predatory are which are not.

I’ve never heard this asked (apart from my own voice shouting at the radio/TV). This is what it all hangs on - there being a magical way to tell who is who, which of course there isn’t and which is why single sex spaces exist and decent men stay out of women’s.

Blort · 30/01/2023 09:34

MoirasSaggyBundles · 30/01/2023 09:01

Rhona Hodgekiss's interview answers (read out in statement form by a producer) for posterity:

When I was governor of Corton Vale, around 2017, there was a suggestion that Tiffany Scott might be transferred to us. He was being held in a male prison and had been for some time. He was known to be violent and very difficult to manage, posing an ongoing threat to staff and other prisoners.

I was appalled at the thought of him being held with the women at Corton Vale. Many women in prison are amongst the most vulnerable people I have ever met, and this person would have terrified them. My immediate reaction was to say, "Over my dead body was he coming here." Shortly after that, he was involved in some other incident, and stayed at a male prison in segregation. The idea of moving him to Corton Vale wasn't raised again.

In my view, informed by my experiences with other trans women I met in prison, and the impact that they had on the women around them, they should never be held in women's prisons. I think what needs to be understood is that, to all intents and purposes, transwomen are indivisible from men. The argument goes that they are vulnerable in men's prisons - but there are groups of men whom that could also be said about, and they are held quite successfully within protection units within the male estate. No-one would suggest, for example, that convicted police officers be held in a female prison.

Joy! Star

MTCoffeePot · 30/01/2023 09:43

.Already happened and failed.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prison-policy-judicial-review-ruling-confirms-trans-rights-do-conflict-with-womens-rights/

Thanks Signal - I note that FPFW say that the judgement highlights serious problems with the data on how the prison service counts transgender prisoners and that 'Improvements will now be required. Prisoners with a GRC will now be counted for the first time.'
Have any of these improvements been implemented?

ScrollingLeaves · 30/01/2023 09:43

Signalbox · Today 09:17

Re Tara Hudson, from the report in the Guardian you posted about in a case
AlliwantforChristmasisgu · Today 09:09 had mentioned where there was a reverse public outcry to move them from a men’s to a women’s prison.

amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/20/tara-hudson-transgender-prisoner-sues-government

Hudson spent six weeks in jail in 2015, after she admitted head-butting a barman. She spent seven days in HMP Bristol before being moved to a women’s facility

Even though she had lived as a woman and taken female hormones for years, she head butted a barman. That is hardly a typical female thing to do.

It is the sort of thing an angry, violent male might do.

Transwomen are male human animals.

ResisterRex · 30/01/2023 09:45

littlbrowndog · 30/01/2023 09:25

This is one of the guys in SPS who helped with the policy. Sex offender

Sex offender helped set prison trans rules

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/99883ac4-f5ae-11e8-b7ef-da439ffb05ca?shareToken=f96999caaf264621902dcea823dc2a08

FrancescaContini · 30/01/2023 09:55

ResisterRex · 30/01/2023 09:45

Show quote history

🤬

maltravers · 30/01/2023 09:58

If I heard it correctly, the MPS droned on about how good the SPS was at protecting vulnerable prisoners and Martha K immediately asked why in that case TW couldn’t be looked after in men’s prisons. He evaded answering that of course.

Signalbox · 30/01/2023 10:06

maltravers · 30/01/2023 09:58

If I heard it correctly, the MPS droned on about how good the SPS was at protecting vulnerable prisoners and Martha K immediately asked why in that case TW couldn’t be looked after in men’s prisons. He evaded answering that of course.

It was a good question.