Politics Live 10 Jan - Scottish Gender Reform Bill - will it be blocked by Westminster?

[MoirasSaggyBundles]

They will be discussing this on today's programme. Panellists include Sonia Sodha.

I don't understand how it works with kids.

If they go to get a birth certificate of their parent what will it show?

Does the existing birth certificate still exist?

What about the parents - some who may be deceased. They are named on the birth certificate. One of the parents has registered the birth?

They are multiple people that may be impacted by a birth certificate being falsified.

@Abccde I've only ever heard this referenced on FWR. Not discussed anywhere else that I've heard. It's what I mean, there is zero consideration for any other stakeholder amidst the "most marginalised and vulnerable" narrative.

Thank you for making this pertinent point, Sonia.

I’m going to listen to this later - thank you.

Sonia Sodha and Zoe Trempel, thank you so much for your articulate advocacy.

I think the original BC still exists but no longer available.

Since a significant number of TW for example are heterosexual middle aged males, I don't think its unreasonable to assume that many if them have had offspring.

So from my reading of it, the child wouldn't be able to get a hold of the BC. I can't see they would be able to get the reissued one (many may not even know their father has transitioned). So essentially their parent no longer exists?

(I might be wrong)

@MoirasSaggyBundles - still love your user name! 😊

What do they mean by going in front of a panel? They make it sound as though someone applying for a GRC has to parade themself (naked? fully clothed and cross-dressed?) in front of a panel of people to check they're trans enough.

When in fact the 'going in front of a panel' just consists of sending in some documents to be looked at by some people who will determine whether the documents say what they should say to qualify the person for a GRC.

I think RMW does not have a GRC? I wonder if that will change with the new law in Scotland.

@OldCrone
Absolutely the intention. It's from the same stable as the fictional genital inspections to play sport or use women's toilets.

Of course they do, because TRAs have to vacillate between the two arguments.

One, it's a medical condition, which needs NHS input, and you cant discriminate against people for their medical conditions and I need to get the government to pay for my surgery.

Or two, it's a civil rights issue and people can just self ID, like being gay, and you can't discriminate over that either.

And the red headed argument is even more ridiculous now, with the fresh statistics from the census.

Are redheaded men five times more likely to commit sex offences the men with other
hair colour?

They never did have any argument - zilch. And it's a disgrace that we have had to submit, and resubmit, and resubmit the evidence against self ID.

But if it takes us going to the nth degree, and flattening every single atom of opposition, then that's what it takes.

They've shifted from saying that the death certificate was important to the trans person (I probably wasn't the only one to point out that the dead person would never see their own death certificate) to it being important to their partner.

But equally, as you point out, the falsified sex on the death certificate could be distressing for a trans widow or the trans person's children. The correct sex on the birth certificate might be distressing for the survivors, but so might the falsified sex. This is not a good reason to allow falsification of legal documents.

It's Shrodingers trans theory. It's not a mental health condition, but anything short of unwavering validation will result in suicide. It's not a medical condition, but the medical community is letting them down unless there's unprecedented access for them to medical procedures.

Over on Twitter - and this may or may not be genuine - but it seems Peter Bottomley is advising constituents using SW's letter about this to...read some Kathleen Stock(!):

twitter.com/xenbyxen/status/1612801060824907776?s=46&t=LzayusOKTQ_hSZ1Y1R5qUw

@OldCrone agreed. I am one of those who really think that once you become a parent the offspring's wellness and comfort would take priority over my own. I suspect most parents do feel that. I am comfortable to say a majority do.

So the lack of care over the feelings of kids on this issue (both legal and personal) really really bothers me. I have very much less desire to empathise with men asserting these arguments because what I see is selfishness that impacts an entire family horribly.

Sure wear what you what, call yourself what you want, but if you've fathered kids you are their father and they have a right to assert that lineage.

And also, it's really important to push through the GRA reform, since it will simultaneously make the lives of trans people so much better and have absolutely no effect on their lives.

It probably is genuine. Sir Peter is very sound on these issues and is certainly a big fan of Dr Stock; he has mentioned her in parliament more than once iirc.

You don't make law on anecdotes or single incidents. |If a single red headed person is a criminal, we don't criminalise all red headed people.

but currently, we do keep all males (male appendages, whatever you want to call them, penises) out of female spaces. That is already precedent.

Also in cases like this i am sick of "anecdote =/= data" because what is data? lots and lots and lots of instances of things. And in social sciences, each one of those things is often an anecdote where anecdote = someone recounting an instance of something happening.

Also: if trans people aren't recorded as trans people, they don't exist. Who is erasing them now? I don't want them erased. I would like to know where they are and what services they might need, though, so collecting information on who is trans (by collecting data on SEX and GENDER) we can target that help.

There is a singular lack of follow-up thought or logic in so many of the things that come out

Re the hypothetical point on the partner being affected and made upset by the dead person’s “real” 🧐birth sex on a death certificate - wtaf??

Not every possible eventuality can be covered. Not every hypothetical upset can be avoided. This point in favour of amending birth certificates is very “scraping the barrel”.

There is a singular lack of follow-up thought or logic in so many of the things that come out

There is, and so all of these arguments come across as demands. A very male way of approching the world. Demands for rights that will be fought for. Rights to assert dominance over women. Its the crux of it. Its not about acceptance, acceptance is invited in. It is about pushing into space forcibly.

MoirasSaggyBundles · Today 13:28
Q to RMW - isn't it useful for people to have a medical diagnosis if they are not sure or want advice and guidance through this process.

RMW - Waiting times for trans people unbelievably long. Not enough medics in UK for T P needs. Moving away from trans being a medical condition, like we did with being gay, to understanding it is part of the rich tapestry of human life and that some people are trans

Well, they will not ever need surgery or hormones then if they are not suffering from gender dysphoria, and if they fancy those elements, should not expect them to be available as part of the NHS.

And men, who as part of the ‘tapestry of human life’ erroneously believe they are
women, can just get on with it without special sympathy or accommodation.

No one need remove words that might upset them either.

He is so selfish though. There are children who are presenting with gender dysphoria, very often for underlying causes of a serious nature, including homophobia against them, and gradually this will just be increasingly ignored as them being ‘born’ trans and part of the ‘great tapestry’.

Quite. I bet there will be way more partners and families who want the correct sex recorded, than otherwise.

Honestly. they're not just scraping the bottom of the barrel, they're using a pneumatic drill to get through it to the core of the earth.

And yes, RMW is demonstrating the thinking of trans maxing.

We want, we demand, you must comply, or else.

He is so selfish though. There are children who are presenting with gender dysphoria, very often for underlying causes of a serious nature, including homophobia against them, and gradually this will just be increasingly ignored as them being ‘born’ trans and part of the ‘great tapestry’.

Yes, life's rich tapestry of legitimising rank
homophobia.

I certainly hope it is @MoirasSaggyBundles.

Thanks for posting, OP. A very interesting look at the issues, which are only now starting to be talked about properly - after the fucking law's been passed!

Sonia was fantastic.

A very interesting look at the issues, which are only now starting to be talked about properly - after the fucking law's been passed!

Yes - BBC has been appallingly derelict in it's duty here. As you say, Arabella, after the law has been passed!! And so many issues for women and kids. It is stark isn't it.