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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gillian Keegan: guidance does not need to legally “define what a girl is”.

64 replies

TheNoWord · 07/01/2023 21:00

Interview in Sunday Times tomorrow

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e4e7f968-8eb2-11ed-a303-61858d68dcd6?shareToken=98e0e41c946c1aeea295dc21965f41e6

“Keegan supports the idea of “safe spaces” for biological women but says the guidance does not need to legally “define what a girl is”. Rather it should set out how individuals can be supported.”

“I’m very clear what a woman is . . . and that includes me . . . but it doesn’t include anybody that has a penis,” she says. “But I think the most important thing that we need to do is to make sure that we sensitively support children and families and that we accommodate them in the best way we can.”

OP posts:
LK1972 · 08/01/2023 14:30

The guidance EHRC issued was non-statutory, which allows it to be ignored by the ideologically-captured.

They are, however, reviewing the statutory guidance, and undoubtedly are coming up against entrenched interests of a lobby + the captured institutions.

The statutory guidance will be interesting when it comes out. Until then we're fiddling at the margins, in my opinion.

FOJN · 08/01/2023 14:35

“Keegan supports the idea of “safe spaces” for biological women...

Starmer does this "safe spaces" bollocks too. I don't want "safe spaces", I want single sex spaces which are SAFER than MIXED sex spaces on account of the fact that men, which includes "non biological women" (how am I even typing this nonsense in 2022), perpetrate the vast majority of sexual and violent crimes.

ResisterRex · 08/01/2023 14:41

LK1972 · 08/01/2023 14:30

The guidance EHRC issued was non-statutory, which allows it to be ignored by the ideologically-captured.

They are, however, reviewing the statutory guidance, and undoubtedly are coming up against entrenched interests of a lobby + the captured institutions.

The statutory guidance will be interesting when it comes out. Until then we're fiddling at the margins, in my opinion.

I agree. But if challenged, the fact you used it would carry some weight

LK1972 · 08/01/2023 14:42

ResisterRex · 08/01/2023 14:21

I don't think GK is necessarily in a position to be able to legally define 'what is a girl', it's just not in her remit.

I think the same. But the EHRC has issued guidance quite some time ago, and this has continually been kicked into the long grass. In the meantime, we've seen an explosion in trans-identifying girls, and some schools forcing "gender neutral" toilets on children.

Safeguarding is in her remit. This can and should get sorted.

Totally agree that exclusive provision of unisex toilets is horrific for all children, but especially girls. This should be complained about by parents, as it's not necessarily legal, as far as I understand (IANAL).

The influence of this ideology is more pernicious though, and is often achieved through activist teachers and clueless SMTs.

I'm not defending the Tories or GK, btw, just pointing out the complexity of the situation, and suggesting that blaming the Tories for it isn't necessarily warranted, especially taking into account the alternative.

ResisterRex · 08/01/2023 15:10

Maya:

twitter.com/mforstater/status/1612088477688139778?s=46&t=rI2UU85Iqclk3B3OVhEzlw

"Schools are crying out for clear guidance on how they can safely, fairly and lawfully respond to demands to "socially transition" children.

It is the Secretary of State's job to give it, not to hold hands and sing Kumbayah with them."

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/01/2023 15:56

Relevant petition doing really well today

RSE content on gender vs sex www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/4585082-rse-content-on-gender-vs-sex

ScrollingLeaves · 08/01/2023 16:29

She is also preparing to publish fresh guidance on supporting transgender pupils in schools. Last summer Suella Braverman, in her role as attorney-general, claimed it would be legal for schools to refuse to use transgender children’s preferred pronouns and ban them from using the toilets or uniform of their stated gender.

The education secretary appears to support a more nuanced approach. “It’s our job to accommodate children, to support them through their life, to educate them to help them become fully rounded human beings,” she says

It sounds like back to ‘affirmation only’ and no spaces for girls. It also seems as though she has an extremely shallow understanding of the issues - whether that is about the rights under the Equalities Act for sex (biological) based spaces and the need to make them absolutely clear , the real underlying issues of abuse, trauma, being in care, autism, homophobia and peer pressure causing gender dysphoria in the first place; or the gender ideology being pushed at children (see the thread about Childline).

ScrollingLeaves · 08/01/2023 16:41

ResisterRex · Today 15:10
Maya:

twitter.com/mforstater/status/1612088477688139778?s=46&t=rI2UU85Iqclk3B3OVhEzlw

"Schools are crying out for clear guidance on how they can safely, fairly and lawfully respond to demands to "socially transition" children.

It is the Secretary of State's job to give it, not to hold hands and sing Kumbayah with them

Thank you ResisterRex.

I saw someone in replies had added the petition to make the Equalities Act clearer.

Is anyone here on Twitter who would add the petition against teaching ‘gender identity’ in RSE lessons in schools? In many cases it isn’t even the schools themselves doing the teaching but outsourced organisations which do not allow parents to see the materials. Schools may well be crying out for clear guidance, but they are themselves partly responsible for setting up confused children to believe they are ‘transgender’.

ErrolTheDragon · 08/01/2023 16:41

“It’s our job to accommodate children, to support them through their life, to educate them to help them become fully rounded human beings,”

I hope she clarifies that 'accommodation' of one group of children isn't at the expense of other children. Supporting one group mustn't pull the rug out from another group.

Musomama1 · 08/01/2023 16:42

GK has told us herself why she isn't going to rock the boat when she says high profile people are getting taken down in Twitter for speaking out about this issue.

GK is ambitious and she will play dumb on this because she wants to be that high profile person some point down the road.

Have some dealings with her, don't expect anything, she'll hold tight, keep voting the right way in Westminster and wait for the bigger opportunity...she won't die on this hill.

ScrollingLeaves · 08/01/2023 16:49

The link at the bottom is the petition against teaching ‘gender identity in RSE lessons in schools.

This is what James Esses says about Chikdline’s webpage about ‘Gender Identity’
Childline expressly state that: ‘some people’s gender identity doesn’t match what’s recorded at birth’. This immediately conflates the notions of ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ and suggests a narrative to vulnerable children that it is possible to be born in the wrong body. They go on to say that: ‘gender identity isn’t just male or female. Some people can identify as non-binary’. This contradicts the fundamental truth that sex is binary.
www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-childline-was-captured-by-trans-ideology/

Petition against teaching gender identity⬇️
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618970

WarningToTheCurious · 08/01/2023 17:56

@Musomama1 Is she your MP too?

She is the most awful constituency MP.

Musomama1 · 08/01/2023 19:12

WarningToTheCurious · 08/01/2023 17:56

@Musomama1 Is she your MP too?

She is the most awful constituency MP.

She's local to me. 👋👋👋

HMSShminafore · 08/01/2023 20:12

LK1972 · 08/01/2023 12:21

We know you hate the Tories TooBig, but I'm not convinced somehow that bringing it up on every thread is necessary, given the Labour position on this issue? As it is, we will likely get your wish in less than 2 years time and will likely have Labour government suggesting full self-ID a la Scotland, what will you be writing then?

Going back to the subject of the thread I agree with @Tallisker that the main problem is the captured Civil Service (for the lurkers we're both current Civil Servants, so speaking from experience), along with captured teachers' unions and educational academia.

NC'd for this.

@Tallisker and @LK1972 I'm actually looking at joining the Civil Service for the famous flexible working arrangements. But reading comments like yours makes me worried I'll either have to bite my tongue against all the batsh*ttery or deal with a lot of flak for being GC. And I'm not sure I have it in me to ignore the 'be kind'ness if I see it going against my professional integrity in whatever sector I try for (probably something around legal/governance).

This might not best answered publicly, but are there any Civil Service divisions which are vaguely sane and not captured?

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/01/2023 20:36

@HMSShminafore, the Civil Service are there to work for the government. The trans shitshow is being pushed by this Tory government. Accusations that the CS are to blame is another one of their lies. The Conservatives have been in power for 13 years, put their own mandarins in place and have had an unprecedented amount of senior CS that have publicly complained and resigned.

It Wasn't Me is going to be their campaign slogan in the next election.🙄

HMSShminafore · 08/01/2023 20:45

With all due respect, I'd rather hear from the posters who actually work in the CS and know what the deal is on the ground.

Plus, you've clearly never watched Yes Minister.

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/01/2023 20:48

Yes Minister is 40 years ago. Thatcher took care of the Sir Humphreys.

Tallisker · 08/01/2023 21:53

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/01/2023 20:48

Yes Minister is 40 years ago. Thatcher took care of the Sir Humphreys.

Don't you believe it!

But I'm not talking about that level of Whitehall mandarin. I'm talking about policy advisors pushing an ideology to senior civil servants and therefore ministers.

In my directorate, more than half of our people are under 35 and a lot in their 20s. My director isn't yet 50 and says he's an old fart and doesn't understand the TQ+++ bit even though he's gay. A while back he said he needs to be educated and some of our prominent LGBT people have done just that, presenting to senior leadership team in how to be 'inclusive' and trans allies. So the director now calls himself 'cis'. This is how it happens, there is no opportunity to present to SLT the GC side and where rights of differing groups clash. So SLT (the old farts) have their children telling them at home that loads of their friends are trans and/or non-binary, and their junior staff at work are sending the same message. It has been flying under the radar for so long thanks to 'No debate' that unless they go looking for it, information such as found and discussed on these boards just isn't routinely available.

Tallisker · 08/01/2023 22:01

HMSShminafore · 08/01/2023 20:45

With all due respect, I'd rather hear from the posters who actually work in the CS and know what the deal is on the ground.

Plus, you've clearly never watched Yes Minister.

Please join. We need as many voices as we can get.

The flexible working is excellent, my lot are shit hot on well-being and although the pay is a bit rubbish, you can progress by moving job/department and indeed are expected and supported to do so.

There is a new staff network in my department for GC people, so there is movement in the right direction. It's tough (there is a thread about this network somewhere, sorry I can't link from my phone) but at least it is a start. I think it needs to change from within.

I wish I'd joined the civil service years ago, the pension is one of the best, annual leave is reasonably generous, and you can literally play a part in making things better for the citizens of the United Kingdom.

HMSShminafore · 09/01/2023 22:38

Tallisker · 08/01/2023 22:01

Please join. We need as many voices as we can get.

The flexible working is excellent, my lot are shit hot on well-being and although the pay is a bit rubbish, you can progress by moving job/department and indeed are expected and supported to do so.

There is a new staff network in my department for GC people, so there is movement in the right direction. It's tough (there is a thread about this network somewhere, sorry I can't link from my phone) but at least it is a start. I think it needs to change from within.

I wish I'd joined the civil service years ago, the pension is one of the best, annual leave is reasonably generous, and you can literally play a part in making things better for the citizens of the United Kingdom.

Many thanks! Yes, I think I found the thread about the GC staff network. Will bear this in mind when looking.

LK1972 · 10/01/2023 00:13

@HMSShminafore It is a good place to work and most people are pretty reasonable. It does feel sometimes that the idealism of younger staff tends to predispose them to wokeness. They tend to come from a good place though, they just bought into the prevailing narratives.

It can feel a bit slow and bureaucratic if you're coming from the private sector, but this is due to the decisions affecting so many people, and the constant danger of hostile coverage in the media, which the CS hates!

However, as Tallisker described, the benefits of working there are very good, and the work is varied and interesting.

BTW, 'Yes, Minister' is not as dated as you'd think. Stakeholders have changed, many the things are still very recognizable.

@TooBigForMyBoots Are you a Civil Servant or are you talking about things you know nothing about to hate on the Tories a bit more?

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/01/2023 02:32

I left the Civil Service in the late 90's @LK1972 having worked through the end of Thatcher's reforms, Major's government and the very beginning of Blair's. Whatever stakeholdersConfused there may be now, they are not Sir Humphreys.

How long have you been working in the CS @LK1972?

Needmoresleep · 10/01/2023 07:35

According to the Conservatives for Women newsletter about half Tory MPs have now confirmed that they know what a woman is. This is a huge increase on last year and a long way from the days when David TC Davies MP was the lone GC voice in Parliament, but there is still a good way to go.

TooBig is right to remind us that this is not enough. Equally I am sure they would agree Labour, the SNP and others also have plenty of room for improvement.

Single sex spaces for women is not a party issue. We need everyone on board. Politicians, the Civil Service, teachers, police, right down to our families and neighbours. It is up to each of us to do what we can, perhaps by writing to our MP, perhaps by questioning something at school, perhaps simply by sharing concerns with family and friends.

The gender bollocks movement is not just down to the Tories. Labour are equally culpable. Blaming one party gets us nowhere. The fact that both Gillian Keegan and Keir Starmer feel the need to sit on the fence rather than turn up on a Stonewall awards night to soak in the praise is a step forward. The next step is to make that fence an uncomfortable place to be. So write to your MP. Raise concerns with your kids schools about toilets or educational materials or sports in the hope that they push back against the Department of Education. Inform the Safe Schools Alliance of any problems. (My own guess here is that schools with their decade or more or Stonewall training, young teachers straight out of University and noticeable numbers of trans or NB pupils lobbying via their LGBTQ+++ groups, are the tail wagging the dog, and GK, given other priorities, is insufficiently interested/committed/informed to take this battle on.)

More specifically whilst TooBig is entitled to their perspective, I feel that it is important that we can have threads that look at individual Labour or Tory policies or approaches without too much thread disruption. MN provides a platform for women to speak to each other. Left wing women, right wing women, older, younger, straight or lesbian, rich or poor, disabled or able bodied, and from a variety of ethnic or other backgrounds. It is a fascinating window into other people’s thinking or experience, one which has often caused me to reconsider my assumptions. TooBig might consider whether disrupting normally polite conversation within gender threads with repeated complaints about Tories, whether justified or not, is helping them achieve their objectives. Our ability to define ourselves as women is fundamental and goes beyond politics. We need this space to talk.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 10/01/2023 07:49

Great post Needmoresleep. It's vital that we put pressure on MPs to ensure that the government issues balanced advice to school that reinforces the rights of girls to safe single sex spaces and ensures that schools don't unwittingly become enforcers for the queer theory soaked lobby groups who've being allowed to wreak havoc with children's mental health and understanding of reality.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/01/2023 09:02

Thank you, Needmoresleep, you have put things so well.

May I add that it was Labour who brought in the Gender Recognition Certificate 2004 without thinking it through properly. Imagine making it legal to lie about the most fundamental fact about human life.

To update the Equality Act to make clear that sex means biological sex, not sex as modified by a certificate, you may like to sign or share this petition:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex?page=1