Trans Swimming sessions

[DaveDave]

Just saw the below event advertised at my local pool. How come this is ok but we can't have biologically female only swimming sessions? I'm annoyed, not because of the event, but because it seems impossible to have female only swimming without being accused of being transphobic.

"Been hoping for a swimming event that's only for trans, non-binary, and/or intersex people? Well, here it is!

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring. Whether you want to swim laps, float about, or just hang out, you're very welcome. We want these sessions to be accessible to as many people who need them, so if you need a carer who is cisgender to attend with you they are welcome to come along. Parents/guardians are welcome to come and wait in the changing rooms but will not be allowed in the pool or on the poolside.

VENUE: The venue will be given to you during booking to ensure privacy. Please do not advertise this information. You can arrive 15 minutes prior to our swimming session starting, but please note that if you arrive more than 15 minutes late you may be locked out. There is very little phone reception by the pool so you may not be able to get in touch with anyone to let you into the building.

CHANGING FACILITIES: The changing room is gender neutral, wheelchair accessible, and has individual changing and shower cubicles. Before swimming you'll have 15 mins to get ready, and 30 mins at the end.

AGE RANGE: This event is for all ages, but if you're under 18 you'll need to get a consent form signed. Just let us know when you're booking and we'll send you one to bring filled in on the day. Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered. If you have [insert word you're comfortable using for your chest/boobs/breast tissue] you'll need to have your chest covered too. A rash vest would be best, but if you don't have one or can't afford one a light weight t-shirt is also acceptable.

BOOKING: To book, or ask any questions, contact [email protected]. If you are disabled and need a cisgender carer to attend with you please let me know during booking.

COST: This event is free to attend but as a charity we welcome donations. You can donate on our website

www.rainbow-project.org/donate/ or there will be a donation bucket available at the event.

(redacted)

Well, perhaps the charity needs to be a bit clearer in their adverts. 'All ages' seems unwise. I know it might seem a bit pedantic to go on about age limits, but this is the entire argument we're having.

Clarity, openness, sensible, and logical thinking about children. That's all.

But how have we gone from having a swimming events to teaching 5yos about sex? Do you think they are giving free safe sex lessons with each swim? A sort of 2 for 1 deal?

No idea, Flounder. Maybe ask the person in the video with the posters about safe sex?

It's not just a case of moving the goalposts to desperately try and find fault, it's more picking them up and running off down the field with them, isn't it?!

I think the goalposts were long dispensed with!

The fundraising video? on Facebook? where 5yos can not have a profile?

Ahhh you got me. Five year olds can't have Facebook profiles, therefore they are definitely totally safe in 'all ages' swimming sessions with unknown adults, parents forbidden, overseen by an organisation that promotes safe sex, group sex, chem sex, lubrication and oral sex.

Alternatively, this organisation should restrict their offerings to adults.

I did not say this, you are taking it out of context. I was writing about their FB page and nothing about lessons - or 5 year olds which is utterly ridiculous to even suggest.

I agree that it's ridiculous to even suggest. So why do they advertise the group for 'all ages'?

Five year olds can't have Facebook profiles, therefore they are definitely totally safe in 'all ages' swimming sessions with unknown adults, parents forbidden, overseen by an organisation that promotes safe sex, group sex, chem sex, lubrication and oral sex
What are you actually talking about?!
5 year olds can't swim unaccompanied, that's the case when swimming.
So why do you think they're in this session by themselves?!

I think you're getting a little caught up in this one phrase!

All ages with parental consent where applicable. How about you contact them and ask, plus any other questions you have rather than speculating?

You can also get info on all those issues, amd more, on the NHS website

Noname99 · Today 18:06
Is it not the right of women and girls to have single sex spaces to enjoy? Is it not the right of them to undertake single sex activities? Why?? The vast majority of men are not a threat and in a public space even less so why should women be able to demand these? Because they want them. Because they feel
safer/less exposed/less judged/religious belief etc. Why can’t trans people ask for the same? You would not allow a father to ‘oversee’ a female only swim session for ‘safeguarding’ reasons …… why can’t this vulnerable group of people who likely have a host of body issues be allowed to swim with their own community. Parents aren’t excluded. Non trans/non-binary people are (unless they are needed to facilitate the trans person or event) Not hard to understand

I take the point you are making about trans people wanting dignity and privacy just like women do, and that they have a right to this, but in my opinion any parent of a child who was willing for them to go to a trans swimming session would be sympathetic to other trans swimmers to the degree that they would be very unlikely to behave in a distressing way towards the other swimmers. I think another poster earlier thought this too.

Also, in the instance you give where one

would not allow a father to ‘oversee’ a female only swim session for ‘safeguarding’ reasons….

a female only session is not so likely to give rise to a feeling of the possibility of a safeguarding problem arising.

but in any case,

in practice, the hypothetical child’s father would ask a female relative or friend to go with the child to the female only session.

Not really. It is the ‘all ages’ aspect of this event that would otherwise be considered a good event that has been discussed on repeat for nearly 40 pages now.

Along with the constant assertion that not allowing parents to be present at poolside is common practice in the UK from age 8.

I find this bizarre and the prevalence of ‘no viewing’ pools seems to be exaggerated for some posters agenda here. I would also question the knowledge of water safety for any parent allowing their 8 year old to swim without them or a nominated adult watching their child. Having experience of many backyard pool parties with 8-11 year olds, you can not expect a life guard to adequately watch an unaccompanied child.

And I still see the twisting of sessions for limited age groups with limited numbers and DBS checked staff with water safety and first aid qualifications being occasionally used as a comparison.

This thread has been on repeat and reading it to catch up it strikes me that so much has been made that supposedly this is ‘transphobic’ in motivation. There has even been some greatly unfounded ‘it won’t be busy’ rhetoric coming through.

And I cannot work out why ‘consent forms’ have become such a discussion point. Is it parents consenting away that organisation’s obligation? Is that why it has featured so heavily in the discussion?

Or is this just a way to say ‘parents think it is ok’? We already know that some of these very vulnerable children have parents who are unable, for whatever reason, to make decisions that are actually in the best interest of the child with regards to treatment. Including any parent using GenderGP.

So, what? What is the purpose behind the constant mention of that signature?

I believe that most people posting on this thread would still say the exact thing about any other event that has been advertised this way.

The issue is, and has been maintained for page after page, the ‘no parents’ in visual range of children at an ‘all age’ event.

And yes, I believe that legislation around allowing 8 year olds unaccompanied by an adult into a general swimming session in a public pool should be addressed. And if there are opportunities to make those changes, then I will certainly be joining that effort.

In the meantime, this is a potential safeguarding issue that can be very easily and quickly addressed. I suggest we write to them for clarification or for them to publish their plans and the protections they have in place so everyone questioning this will have their answers.

And I repeat, that I would be suggesting this for any event advertised using these terms. I would expect even a female only event to be age limited to accommodate this need to allow a parent / guardian to watch their child.

Plus, if I was an organiser, I would never hire a venue where there was no way a parent could view their child. Just because those pools are out there, doesn’t mean they have to be hired.

And seriously, stop using pool parties hosted by a professional organization who owns a pool for hire or membership use as a comparator to this event. It was ridiculous the first time it was plopped down as a gotcha.

Plus, if I was an organiser, I would never hire a venue where there was no way a parent could view their child.

This! If you are putting on an 'all ages swim session' and you don't want the parents getting in the pool, then surely the priority would be to book a pool where the parents can at least watch.

But the assertion that 'many' public swimming pools don't have anywhere where people can watch those in the water is utter bollocks anyway.

Flounder2022 · Yesterday 21:08

I do not have an issue with the fundraising

Then you are a part of the problem.

No one has been able to demonstrate how a fundraising video, clearly not aimed at children is an issue.

It's strange isn't it. Now I've not been to the baths for a long time (but I don't imagine things have gone backwards with regards this sort of thing) but I used to take the kids i babysat to their Sunday swimming lessons. I had a choice I could get changed into a swimming costume myself and go and sit in the seating area that was right next to the training pool and watch the kids in their lesson from there or go up to the cafe which overlooked the pool and have breakfast whilst I looked down on the kids in the actual pool.

Now if that's what the facilties were like in the past why? And how? Did safeguarding change that much that dissuading and stopping parents/guardian's watching over the children became so prevalent. Because if this is truly what's happening it needs stopping and sorting immediately.

Flounder2022 · Today 09:10

No one has been able to demonstrate how a fundraising video, clearly not aimed at children is an issue.

It's not just that which makes you part of the problem, but if you can't see that a video on the website, which is one of the first things seen, may be watched by young children, then there isn't much hope for you.

You have poo-pooed the safeguarding issue, of excluding parents, and seem to think that all trans people are cuddly fluffy bunny lovely and would never do anything bad.

You claimed that they must have a safeguarding policy, despite having no evidence to support that.

Despite everyone saying that there's no problem with a trans swim for adults, you just call people transphobes, because you haven't actually got an argument.

Not one of those who taise the 'all ages' issue has bothered to find out exactly what the organisers mean by this. So have at it and be sure to let us know!

Because no child ever watches something not aimed at them, even if the content is something they are interested in! That confused 11 year olds will go oh no that's probably aimed at adults I'll self censor myself and not watch it!

The video is not on their website, it's buried deep in their FB page. It is certainly not the 1st thing anyone would see.. There are a number of other videos which you would like even less that come before it.

Not once have I poo-pood safeguarding but I am not going to assume wrongdoing where no evidence exists to suggest it. I did not claim they must have a policy, I said failure to have it on the website did not mean one did not exist. I also said that one being available on organisations websites was good practice. And that this, amd all organisations should be subject to the same safeguarding measures.

I did not once call anyone a tramsphobe.

Anything else you would like to claim I said so I can correct you?

(Not one of those who taise the 'all ages' issue has bothered to find out exactly what the organisers mean by this. So have at it and be sure to let us know!

What do you think 'all ages' means? It couldn't really be any clearer.

Oh my god, all these comments trying to defend the ridiculous.
Let parents in OR have an age limit.

It's not hard. Although I suppose it is if you're a bunch of basketcases.