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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Telegraph - Keir Starmer: Pro-trans laws are needed across UK

649 replies

ResisterRex · 23/12/2022 21:30

At first glance, just (just!!) a rehash of his video from last year. Which said what it said. But there's this:

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/23/keir-starmer-pro-trans-laws-needed-across-uk/

"Asked by The Telegraph about the leader’s comments to Pink News, Labour confirmed that he stood by plans to reform the GRA.

A party spokesman said: “All political parties agree that the process needs modernising. A future Labour government will consult on what that looks like, while upholding the Equality Act and maintaining single-sex spaces.
“Labour has a strong and proud record of standing up for women’s rights. Our commitment to them is unrelenting.”
Trans rights have become a key electoral battleground in the USS_ and are expected to be similarly important in the UK at the next general election."

Do all political parties agree the GRA needs updating? The Tories just made it easier to get a GRC, and they've not said they plan to do more.

Once again the "maintaining single sex spaces" rhetoric. But next to the Haldane judgement? Come on.

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/12/2022 20:26

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2022 20:21

You are very insistent about men's ability to encroach on women's spaces. That's what it reveals.

Don't forget insisting on centring themselves in a discussion Arabella. 😅

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/12/2022 20:38

@postcardpuffin

Thank you for an opening to post this 😁

www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/mum-hair-actually-designed-to-ward-off-men-2013030862130

TheABC · 30/12/2022 21:25

I recently got a Pixy bob as a last-ditch self defence against the bloody nits my daughter has dragging in from school each day. Likewise, I no longer bother with make up (my skin thanks me) and I ditched high heels in favour of stompy boots after my second pregnancy.

By TRA standards I must have transitioned to a man.

However, this is where the double standards come in. I think the reason why the self-ID bill has been reduced to a name change on an electric bill is because anything else shows up the mysiogyny. How do you get a transman to "prove" they are living as a man? Not everyone wants crossed sex hormones or breast removal. (Which is fair). But plenty of old fashioned women have short hair, trousers and face hair, if nature wills it.

You can "prove" transwomen were such in the past because they opted for long skirts and hair in the past which had no social cachet. They were dressing down' from their social class. To do so in the face of public opprobrium meant they had to have a reason for it. Hence the argument that cross dressers were safer in the ladies. Which was then extended to every man who did not want to change anything at all except their access to bodies.

I might add at this juncture that I have no problem with men in skirts and I don't think a social lie is the equivalent to bio reality. However, back when it was the exception, not the rule, it was politely ignored.

If transpeople do not want the social formula to end up mean trans=pervert, they need to come down sharply on the side of safeguarding. Because the perverts will use the loophole (just as they did for scouts, church, celebrities etc.) and because we can't tell the difference between the trans person and a bad faith actor, we have to assume that are chancers.

As a mother, I will do whatever it takes within my power to protect my daughter. That means I will scream at the 30-year-old man in the ladies changing room, I will ask about mixed sex toilets at school and push safeguarding where I have to. Because if a man is in there, it's for validation or paraphilic reasons. A decent man would not cause us that distress. He would not want to be there. And yes, transwomen (or MtF, if that's your term) are included. They can use the men's or mixed sex. If they want to shout 'be kind,' do it at those men. But they won't - not will we see such campaigns

I include prisons and refuges in my fight that I will never be likely to use because, unlike the users, I am not hobbled by that burden of circumstances and I have a voice I can use to help them. Rapists should be never be locked up with women and it horrified me that this present government has allowed it. It horrifies me that a future Labour administration would cheer it on. We are asking for really basic protections; the right not to be raped, harassed or abused when in a state of undress or vulnerability.

SinnerBoy · 30/12/2022 22:16

TheBiologyStupid · Today 20:10

Yes, I'm not sure that Sir Keir is quite the lawyer he supposes himself to be..

As if he didn't give that one away by claiming that trans "women" are legally women.

SinnerBoy · 30/12/2022 22:20

jgw1 · Today 18:42

Oh do tell what it reveals about me

That you are determined to impose yourself where women tell you that you are unwelcome and intimidating.

That you are determined to ignore women's feelings.

That you think that your feelings and insistence on others validating you and your feelings marks you out as having the empathy of a striking cobra.

Britinme · 30/12/2022 22:29

If transpeople do not want the social formula to end up mean trans=pervert, they need to come down sharply on the side of safeguarding. Because the perverts will use the loophole (just as they did for scouts, church, celebrities etc.) and because we can't tell the difference between the trans person and a bad faith actor, we have to assume that are chancers.

And this is the huge issue with self ID. If there is literally nothing a man has to do except declare himself a woman to expect to have access to women's spaces, many women are going to assume he is a bad faith actor whether he is or not.

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2022 23:04

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/12/2022 20:38

😂

Cailleach1 · 30/12/2022 23:16

jgw1 · 30/12/2022 14:41

Careful, when I posted about a study that showed less than 10% of victims of sexual assault were unknown to the perpetrator, I was widely derided.

Of course, increasing the ability of males to insert themselves where women are more vulnerable might increase the opportunities for males to carry out assaults.

That is one of the reasons why there are single sex spaces to begin with; If we take away dignity and privacy. I think I read somewhere that most opportunistic offences (including voyeurism) take place in mixed sex spaces. If society is increasing mixed spaces by allowing unquestioned access for males who claim to be women, then that increases the risks for women and girls in those spaces. It doesn't really matter a hoot how the males 'identify' themselves in their own minds.

ResisterRex · 30/12/2022 23:21

If society is increasing mixed spaces by allowing unquestioned access for males who claim to be women, then that increases the risks for women and girls in those spaces.

This also means women and girls self-exclude. And we shrink back into our homes. Just like MRAs want.

OP posts:
mach2 · 30/12/2022 23:27

I have found it incredible to hear a Labour front-bencher describe GC women as dinosaurs hoarding rights. It's dismaying to see that almost the entirity of the opposition parties are wedded to self-ID and gender ideology. None seem to have grasped that if gender non-conforming males feel unsafe in male single sex spaces, the problem does not lie with women and women cannot be expected to bear the load.

I doubt I'll get a Labour canvasser around here but if I do I will make it plain that I find the party's gender stance a huge block to voting for them.

Abccde · 30/12/2022 23:33

If Keir doesn't sort this out, I may just spoil my ballet for the 1st time ever in the next election.

The only thing that would prevent me is that my Tory MP is really really shit. That's not ideological - he's just not good at this job.

And then there is how damaging a Tory government has been to woman and kids.

I can see some difficult decisions ahead.

Better of 2 evils.

Abccde · 30/12/2022 23:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mach2 · 30/12/2022 23:36

The only thing that would prevent me is that my Tory MP is really really shit. That's not ideological - he's just not good at this job.

Mine is a massive greasy pole-climbing lightweight. God, this hurts.

babyjellyfish · 31/12/2022 05:15

jgw1 · 29/12/2022 20:47

Ah, so as long as you look male you are not allowed in.
Are there any particular features that allow your eyes to determine this, is it perhaps the way they dress? Short hair?

When you get to the point where your ideology requires you to pretend that no one can tell the difference between a male person and a female person, does it never occur to you to stop and think about whether it might be completely batshit?

babyjellyfish · 31/12/2022 05:23

jgw1 · 30/12/2022 18:42

Oh do tell what it reveals about me?

As I understand your answer currently a trans woman could go into a female changing room and if self ID were introduced they also could, so nothing has changed.

In which case why is there such a pressing need to make it easier for people who don't even have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to falsify their official documents?

So India Willoughby can feel affirmed and waste valuable NHS resources by being invited for a smear test to check whether India is at risk of cancer of India's non-existent cervix?

jgw1 · 31/12/2022 08:02

SinnerBoy · 30/12/2022 22:20

jgw1 · Today 18:42

Oh do tell what it reveals about me

That you are determined to impose yourself where women tell you that you are unwelcome and intimidating.

That you are determined to ignore women's feelings.

That you think that your feelings and insistence on others validating you and your feelings marks you out as having the empathy of a striking cobra.

You are right I disagree with you. Quite why you find that so problematic I don't know.

jgw1 · 31/12/2022 08:03

babyjellyfish · 31/12/2022 05:15

When you get to the point where your ideology requires you to pretend that no one can tell the difference between a male person and a female person, does it never occur to you to stop and think about whether it might be completely batshit?

Please can you point to where I said that no one can tell the difference between male and females?

Or are we back to twisting my words?

SinnerBoy · 31/12/2022 09:21

jgw1

You are right I disagree with you. Quite why you find that so problematic I don't know.

Because of your insistence on access all areas for men in women's facilities.

OldCrone · 31/12/2022 09:28

jgw1 · 31/12/2022 08:03

Please can you point to where I said that no one can tell the difference between male and females?

Or are we back to twisting my words?

You implied that you personally find it difficult. You said:

Ah, so as long as you look male you are not allowed in.
Are there any particular features that allow your eyes to determine this, is it perhaps the way they dress? Short hair?

And as I've already said, if you find that people keep misunderstanding what you say, you could try expressing yourself more clearly.

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 31/12/2022 10:03

OldCrone · 31/12/2022 09:28

You implied that you personally find it difficult. You said:

Ah, so as long as you look male you are not allowed in.
Are there any particular features that allow your eyes to determine this, is it perhaps the way they dress? Short hair?

And as I've already said, if you find that people keep misunderstanding what you say, you could try expressing yourself more clearly.

They're not interested in being understood, they just rush in to sneer at everyone and then congratulate themselves for a job well done.
There's no substance, just deflection and sneer, sneer, sneer. It's tedious.

Datun · 31/12/2022 10:16

jgw1 · 31/12/2022 08:02

You are right I disagree with you. Quite why you find that so problematic I don't know.

Haha! It's not your disagreement that's so tedious. Men's disagreement with women's boundaries is commonplace. It's the unrelentingly irritating faux engagement.

Making goady statements to prompt reactions and then pretending your statements are just neutral facts, and why are we getting so annoyed, is the behaviour of teenagers. It's not a novel or clever way of engagement. And, of course, it's woefully familiar to members of a parenting website.

If you're going to employ the overused tactic of plausible deniability, then for the love of god at least make an attempt to be plausible.

Here's a thought, instead of writing silly statements loaded with implication and then pretending they're not, why don't you just write normally like everyone else, say what you think, read the responses and answer accordingly.

Or, if you think your arguments won't hold up, because you're just here to enjoy some unfounded disagreement with women, go and reflect on why that is.

AutumnCrow · 31/12/2022 10:57

There's a poster who spends a lot of time on another (unrelated) board who does this. Same tactics, right down to the 'twisting my words' every few posts.

ArabellaScott · 31/12/2022 11:02

jgw1 · 31/12/2022 08:02

You are right I disagree with you. Quite why you find that so problematic I don't know.

You give yourself away, jgw1! How have you refused yet to denounce your remarks of yesterday at 16.15? If you won't at least do that or respond then I declare you a bot.

SinnerBoy · 31/12/2022 12:43

AutumnCrow · Today 10:57

There's a poster who spends a lot of time on another (unrelated) board who does this. Same tactics, right down to the 'twisting my words' every few posts.

Someone with a headwear related username?

jgw1 · 31/12/2022 12:50

SinnerBoy · 31/12/2022 09:21

jgw1

You are right I disagree with you. Quite why you find that so problematic I don't know.

Because of your insistence on access all areas for men in women's facilities.

I'm sure if I had insisted upon that, you would be able to quote the post where I said it.

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