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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Telegraph - Keir Starmer: Pro-trans laws are needed across UK

649 replies

ResisterRex · 23/12/2022 21:30

At first glance, just (just!!) a rehash of his video from last year. Which said what it said. But there's this:

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/23/keir-starmer-pro-trans-laws-needed-across-uk/

"Asked by The Telegraph about the leader’s comments to Pink News, Labour confirmed that he stood by plans to reform the GRA.

A party spokesman said: “All political parties agree that the process needs modernising. A future Labour government will consult on what that looks like, while upholding the Equality Act and maintaining single-sex spaces.
“Labour has a strong and proud record of standing up for women’s rights. Our commitment to them is unrelenting.”
Trans rights have become a key electoral battleground in the USS_ and are expected to be similarly important in the UK at the next general election."

Do all political parties agree the GRA needs updating? The Tories just made it easier to get a GRC, and they've not said they plan to do more.

Once again the "maintaining single sex spaces" rhetoric. But next to the Haldane judgement? Come on.

OP posts:
RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 30/12/2022 10:47

MarshaBradyo · 30/12/2022 08:40

Everyone is so reasonable dealing with these deflections I’m impressed.

No straight answers just continual non points

Yes, very impressive

for a few reasons I’m unable to hold my temper as well as id like at the moment so im finding even more impressive than usual 😀

jgw1 · 30/12/2022 14:31

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 30/12/2022 10:47

Yes, very impressive

for a few reasons I’m unable to hold my temper as well as id like at the moment so im finding even more impressive than usual 😀

Thank you for your kind words.

jgw1 · 30/12/2022 14:41

Alltheprettyseahorses · 30/12/2022 09:45

Exactly what does 'known to the victim' mean?

According to www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-43128350.amp only 9% of victims were attacked by a total stranger. But it does say
'44% were assaulted by "another known person"' How known is known? Who could that be? Someone they've seen around the local area, someone they've noticed before in a supermarket queue? Someone they know of rather than actually know? Most people have a routine and because of that will not necessarily come across classic 'total strangers' very often.

And, of course, as PPs have said opportunity matters. A total stranger is fairly unlikely to bump into you on the more deserted parts of your commute for example and from this I'd argue that 9% of attacks being committed by total strangers is statistically very high. But someone you may vaguely notice at the station a few times a week who knows what train you get off and which gate you walk through to take a shortcut through the quiet park gardens opposite is not a total stranger. And so on.

Careful, when I posted about a study that showed less than 10% of victims of sexual assault were unknown to the perpetrator, I was widely derided.

Britinme · 30/12/2022 14:44

You were rightly derided for completely avoiding the issue of opportunity and for appearing to regard the ratio of known/unknown assailants as some kind of acceptable risk. If in fact you don't regard it as acceptable perhaps you should clarify why you defend policies that facilitate predatory male-bodied people to have access to women in spaces they regard as safe from such access.

jgw1 · 30/12/2022 14:44

OldCrone · 30/12/2022 07:00

Are we back to the argument that because a tiny number of people look androgynous, we should make all spaces mixed sex? What is the purpose of your question and what does this have to do with the GRA?

Under the law which has just been voted for in Scotland, and which Keir Starmer would extend to the whole of the UK, looks have nothing to do with access to single sex spaces. He wants obviously male men with full male anatomy to have full access to all women only spaces on the strength of a simple declaration that they are 'living as a woman'.

What is to stop a man from entering for example female changing rooms at the moment?
Under the new regime would one have to show ID before going into toilets?

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2022 14:46

By god you're right. The power of social convention is strong! But luckily, we have genderism to undermine this long held understanding that males don't transgress into women's spaces. Thankfully we now know that all along men who weren't going to respect women's boundaries were always going to ignore rules, laws, convention and the pleas of women.

ResisterRex · 30/12/2022 14:49

What is to stop a man from entering for example female changing rooms at the moment?

Respect for women. No decent man would ever even think of doing this.

OP posts:
Britinme · 30/12/2022 14:50

What is to stop a man from entering for example female changing rooms at the moment?

Usually, common decency and an understanding of the innate risk to women of a male-bodied person unknown to her entering a space where she expects to be safe from that risk.

Signalbox · 30/12/2022 15:04

jgw1 · 30/12/2022 14:44

What is to stop a man from entering for example female changing rooms at the moment?
Under the new regime would one have to show ID before going into toilets?

What kept males out of female spaces until recently was integrity of the individual plus social convention whereby male people use the men’s, female people use the women’s and women are allowed to confront obvious males who enter spaces which are not for them.

Trans activism has slowly broken down the social convention part of this and made it so women can no longer call out males in their spaces. So now women can only rely on the integrity of men / male people (which is obviously failing now as mire and more men claim a “woman” identity and refuse to accept that actual women should be entitled to have boundaries)

Even if it were practical to rely on ID (it isn’t) it would be of no use because people can change their ID so I’m not sure why trans activists always raise this as a solution when I’ve never seen a feminist suggest it.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 30/12/2022 16:02

jgw1 · 30/12/2022 14:31

Thank you for your kind words.

thats ok…glad you like them

Datun · 30/12/2022 16:09

jgw1 · 30/12/2022 14:44

What is to stop a man from entering for example female changing rooms at the moment?
Under the new regime would one have to show ID before going into toilets?

Decency? Respect for women? Not wanting to be thought of as a predator? Or a man who couldn't give a flying fuck about women's boundaries?

Your questions are so revealing about you.

LlynTegid · 30/12/2022 16:10

@Signalbox well put.

Grammarnut · 30/12/2022 17:31

postcardpuffin · 29/12/2022 22:34

Ah, yet again. 🙄 You can always tell the US posters who roll over from Twitter with their tired old gotchas but are totally ignorant of U.K. law, and also seem to genuinely think we use hair length and clothes to tell men and women apart.

Funny how earlier generations managed so well, given that short hair was the default hairdo for most women in the U.K. between the forties and the nineties. Even today, almost all women over the age of 60 have short hair, and the vast majority of them wear trousers. However do the old folks manage? They must be getting misgendered by the minutes!

Why, I even hear that the most popular female comedy character on British television is actually (whisper) played by a MAN! Nobody tell the oldies! I guess they can’t tell!

While I agree with you, during the 70s the default hairdo for women was long and straight, hanging to the waist. Mind, we wore skirts with it, and the wearing of trousers (very inconvenient garments for women, and painful if you have an episiotomy scar) did not really take hold until the 90s.

jgw1 · 30/12/2022 18:42

Datun · 30/12/2022 16:09

Decency? Respect for women? Not wanting to be thought of as a predator? Or a man who couldn't give a flying fuck about women's boundaries?

Your questions are so revealing about you.

Oh do tell what it reveals about me?

As I understand your answer currently a trans woman could go into a female changing room and if self ID were introduced they also could, so nothing has changed.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/12/2022 18:48

Datun · 30/12/2022 16:09

Decency? Respect for women? Not wanting to be thought of as a predator? Or a man who couldn't give a flying fuck about women's boundaries?

Your questions are so revealing about you.

It's always interesting seeing which posters demand the end of the social contract based on respect for others rights. More red flags than a CCP convention.

postcardpuffin · 30/12/2022 18:56

Grammarnut · 30/12/2022 17:31

While I agree with you, during the 70s the default hairdo for women was long and straight, hanging to the waist. Mind, we wore skirts with it, and the wearing of trousers (very inconvenient garments for women, and painful if you have an episiotomy scar) did not really take hold until the 90s.

Sure, but only for young women. Look at women as soon as they became mothers or hit 35+ in the 70s, and pretty much all had short hair. (All throughout the century very young women often had long hair, but normally switched to cropped or short permed or curled hair as soon as they stopped being young and/or available.) My mum had gorgeous long hair in the 70s as a young woman and young wife — until she got pregnant, and then swiftly got a short Purdey cut like all her mum friends!

(Remember that then, in the 80s and well into the early 90s, women were largely advised to get a “low maintenance” short hairstyle when they had small children! I have all my mum’s baby books which I reread for fun when I had DD — and they all actually advise this!)

And most boomer age women had kids in their early to mid 20s — so it wasn’t that long that they had the lovely long 70s hair for!

Re trousers, oddly though for the boomer generation they didn’t take to trousers until the 90s, the older generations, like my grandmother’s and her age friends, were often wearing “slacks” the whole time. Women wearing trousers in fact looked old-fashioned and grandma generation during the 70s-90s, and not particularly radical, precisely because it had been so popular during the fifties and sixties for that generation of older women (perm & set, slacks and jumper!)

This is only to illustrate that the idiocy and shortsightedness of young TRAs claiming that “gender non-conforming” dress is equal to short hair and trousers, when most older women routinely wear that and women during the 20thc. always have done. The very gendered clothing of the last two decades (bodycon, long swishy hair, tons of makeup, Kardashian style look) is very recent. Young people (I work with university students), tend to assume that this is how women have always dressed up until now, when it’s a style that dates from post-2000 anyway. They are routinely amazed when I point out that we didn’t dress like that in the 90s.

Datun · 30/12/2022 19:18

jgw1 · 30/12/2022 18:42

Oh do tell what it reveals about me?

As I understand your answer currently a trans woman could go into a female changing room and if self ID were introduced they also could, so nothing has changed.

Yeah, like that question.

Wellies54 · 30/12/2022 19:19

Regarding self ID not making a difference in toilets/ changing rooms. The way I understand it is that we have the right to designate single sex spaces however, due to social convention no one really bothered about legally declaring this for spaces such as public toilets. Men respected women's boundaries and women, being kind, on the whole didn't have a problem with the very small number of transwomen who used them. Now that there are increasing numbers of men who identify as women and more incidents of men taking advantage of the break down in convention, women are pushing back. At some point we will start to invoke the law to declare that toilets are single sex spaces. This, in my opinion is one reason why TRAs are so keen to push through self ID and to blur the definition of woman as a biological category in the law. They are thinking ahead to make it harder for us legally when we start to demand protection for the spaces which were previously covered by convention.

Datun · 30/12/2022 19:23

postcardpuffin · 30/12/2022 18:56

Sure, but only for young women. Look at women as soon as they became mothers or hit 35+ in the 70s, and pretty much all had short hair. (All throughout the century very young women often had long hair, but normally switched to cropped or short permed or curled hair as soon as they stopped being young and/or available.) My mum had gorgeous long hair in the 70s as a young woman and young wife — until she got pregnant, and then swiftly got a short Purdey cut like all her mum friends!

(Remember that then, in the 80s and well into the early 90s, women were largely advised to get a “low maintenance” short hairstyle when they had small children! I have all my mum’s baby books which I reread for fun when I had DD — and they all actually advise this!)

And most boomer age women had kids in their early to mid 20s — so it wasn’t that long that they had the lovely long 70s hair for!

Re trousers, oddly though for the boomer generation they didn’t take to trousers until the 90s, the older generations, like my grandmother’s and her age friends, were often wearing “slacks” the whole time. Women wearing trousers in fact looked old-fashioned and grandma generation during the 70s-90s, and not particularly radical, precisely because it had been so popular during the fifties and sixties for that generation of older women (perm & set, slacks and jumper!)

This is only to illustrate that the idiocy and shortsightedness of young TRAs claiming that “gender non-conforming” dress is equal to short hair and trousers, when most older women routinely wear that and women during the 20thc. always have done. The very gendered clothing of the last two decades (bodycon, long swishy hair, tons of makeup, Kardashian style look) is very recent. Young people (I work with university students), tend to assume that this is how women have always dressed up until now, when it’s a style that dates from post-2000 anyway. They are routinely amazed when I point out that we didn’t dress like that in the 90s.

Yes, I agree with all this.

Also, long hair after 30 was considered 'inappropriate'.

Slacks - yes. My mother wore them with 'stirrups'. They came back to to fashion in the 90s. And I'm sure M and S do them now.

The ubiquitous long hair and make up on girls now is a very recent phenomenon.

Signalbox · 30/12/2022 19:57

As I understand your answer currently a trans woman could go into a female changing room and if self ID were introduced they also could, so nothing has changed.

This is so disingenuous. When rights are taken away from a group the best way to do this is bit by bit. This is how trans activism works to take rights from women. It does it in stages so at any point we hear "but it's such a tiny minority you won't notice" or "we've been doing that for years so what's the difference" or "it's only one or two TW and they aren't dominating" or "nothing has changed".

You are correct that many transwomen already ignore social convention and women's boundaries by going into female changing areas and toilets and I've no doubt that the numbers of people with the confidence to do this will increase once self-ID comes into effect. It's obvious that these people have zero respect for women. What's weird though is that trans activists think this is a compelling argument for why women shouldn't put up a fight to prevent self-ID from becoming law.

Grammarnut · 30/12/2022 20:06

postcardpuffin · 30/12/2022 18:56

Sure, but only for young women. Look at women as soon as they became mothers or hit 35+ in the 70s, and pretty much all had short hair. (All throughout the century very young women often had long hair, but normally switched to cropped or short permed or curled hair as soon as they stopped being young and/or available.) My mum had gorgeous long hair in the 70s as a young woman and young wife — until she got pregnant, and then swiftly got a short Purdey cut like all her mum friends!

(Remember that then, in the 80s and well into the early 90s, women were largely advised to get a “low maintenance” short hairstyle when they had small children! I have all my mum’s baby books which I reread for fun when I had DD — and they all actually advise this!)

And most boomer age women had kids in their early to mid 20s — so it wasn’t that long that they had the lovely long 70s hair for!

Re trousers, oddly though for the boomer generation they didn’t take to trousers until the 90s, the older generations, like my grandmother’s and her age friends, were often wearing “slacks” the whole time. Women wearing trousers in fact looked old-fashioned and grandma generation during the 70s-90s, and not particularly radical, precisely because it had been so popular during the fifties and sixties for that generation of older women (perm & set, slacks and jumper!)

This is only to illustrate that the idiocy and shortsightedness of young TRAs claiming that “gender non-conforming” dress is equal to short hair and trousers, when most older women routinely wear that and women during the 20thc. always have done. The very gendered clothing of the last two decades (bodycon, long swishy hair, tons of makeup, Kardashian style look) is very recent. Young people (I work with university students), tend to assume that this is how women have always dressed up until now, when it’s a style that dates from post-2000 anyway. They are routinely amazed when I point out that we didn’t dress like that in the 90s.

Yes, you're right, though it was my ex-husband who wanted me to cut my long hair (one wonders why!) and I kept it shoulder length or longer all through my thirties, forties etc, indeed, it is shoulder length now and I wear it loose (much older than 40ish!). Short hair was definitely a 50s and early 60s thing. I am amazed that TRAs think that trousers and short hair are gender-nonconforming when this was certainly frequent women's wear in the 40s, 50s and 60s. Odd. As for the Kardashian look, I despair.

Unsure33 · 30/12/2022 20:08

TheBiologyStupid · 29/12/2022 22:57

Rape in UK law involves insertion of a penis - so no rapes are carried out by women.

Except keir Starmer said women can have a penis.

TheBiologyStupid · 30/12/2022 20:10

Yes, I'm not sure that Sir Keir is quite the lawyer he supposes himself to be...

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2022 20:20

(Remember that then, in the 80s and well into the early 90s, women were largely advised to get a “low maintenance” short hairstyle when they had small children! I have all my mum’s baby books which I reread for fun when I had DD — and they all actually advise this!)

My hairdresser recommended this 9 years ago!

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2022 20:21

jgw1 · 30/12/2022 18:42

Oh do tell what it reveals about me?

As I understand your answer currently a trans woman could go into a female changing room and if self ID were introduced they also could, so nothing has changed.

You are very insistent about men's ability to encroach on women's spaces. That's what it reveals.

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