Women protesting in front of Alameda County Courthouse attacked!

[Helleofabore]

This seems to be the new norm.

A pie in the face and destruction of signs. And it looks like the bike might have bumped into the person taking the video on the way through to snatch the sign.

And it looks like it was only one or two people attacking them in a quick 'snatch and grab' action. But their violence was clear.

twitter.com/ReduxxMag/status/1599852773809750017?s=20&t=00dZ3FNXiMKS560z-h8HOg

For those without twitter. The tweets accompanying the video is:

BREAKING: Women with WDI_USA were just attacked by black-clad trans activists in California.

The women were confronted and had a sign stolen while peacefully demonstrating against the placement of males in female prisons.

Police have been contacted.

The women had gathered outside of the Alameda County Courthouse in response to the trial of Dana Rivers, a prominent trans activist who was recently convicted in the murder of a family.

Rivers may be placed in a women's prison.

^READ: bit.ly/3Vx2J4p^

Thank you to all the brave women who protest in front of these prisons and court houses to protect female inmates. I am sorry that these women have been attacked. Obviously for using words that cause hurt feelings in this case.

Yes. You are right.

I think anyone portraying this group as only white feminists, clearly has made some incorrect assumptions about the backgrounds of the women protesting.

That would be rather hypocritical wouldn’t it?

@Onnabugeisha I noticed an interesting pattern in the list of murders/deaths as a result of protests in America that you listed. Although the profile of the people who died varied a lot, pretty much all of the people committing the violence were men. Whereas the attacks in front of the courthouse apparently were committed by transwomen which makes them quite unnusual... What, in your opinion, is the reason these women were committing largely male pattern offences?

What’s not ok is erasing the injuries and deaths of mostly minority peaceful protesters to construct a narrative of this protest being evidence of a fictional new norm of heightened violence that only now requires widespread outrage, and wondering why crickets are chirping. They’re chirping because on the scale of violence encountered at protests past and present, wounded pride is below the threshold for outrage from an American perspective.

Wait! So you want us to accept the visibly increasing levels of violence against women standing still, protesting in silence, because the height of violence that you deem "normal" has not yet ben reached? And that is why nobody is reacting to the acts so far, because it's nly a little bit violent. Didn't really hurt all that much?

I think it would only be worse if someone went so far as to compare themselves to the women protesting in Iran. And yet there you just did...to make your point. Sad that you cannot see that both are different ends of the same violent continua males perpetrate against females throughout history, the world over.

Ah! I see. This is our natural state. So we should shut up until we get really hurt. Left for dead at the bottom of the stairs with god only knows what objects shoved into us! Taken away and beaten to death, families left without a clue. OK! I get what you mean now.

Pshaw!

It is only @Helleofabore that is completely dismissing violence.

You used the wrong username here @Onnabugeisha , there’s a few on this thread so I can see why you might get confused. At least you have some mates now.

Lets recap:
Deadnaming and correctly sexing someone - called out for perpetrating wicked violence, labelled a literal Nazi, and likened to inciting ‘trans genocide’

Using fists, weapons, and missiles at a few unarmed women - nothing to discuss, or at least not until you’ve called out all other violence worldwide first, and in order of magnitude.

Yeah, that tracks 🤡

I finally have a spare moment to address the pivots and the whataboutery that has gone on in the past few pages.

it’s a bit tone deaf to say. Apparently, my saying 'This seems to be the new norm' was tone deaf because what I didn't say explicitly was the parameters of what I said it seems to be the new norm for.

Any person who has been discussing the violence at the women's rallies, the ones where women give speeches on FWR over the past few months would reasonably assume that the topic I was referring to was 'for small scale women's rallies'.

Of which, I have yet to see this poster post an example of a 'let women speak' rally that prior to this being attacked.

When you look at the USA and protests that this “new norm” is actually much less violent than in the recent past and of such insignificance compared to the murderous violence that quite a few peaceful BLM protesters have faced in recent years.

So, then this is where this poster has now used a false comparison. They have taken a very small scale, local event and then tried to compare what happened there to what happens as very large scale protests. Ones formed in reaction to some horrific event and well publicised for anyone to join.

It is a really nice touch to see the "If it’s a “new norm” for the USA it is actually quite heartening to see compared to killed by gun violence, death by vehicle, water cannons and tear gas."

The desired effect is = there is nothing to see here, these women should fucking think themselves lucky and they and you should all stop talking about it. And preferrably, they should stop.

Ignoring that even a small scale event of women peacefully standing in silence holding up words is now subject to violence. No need to prioritise the degree of violence. Just that. They were attacked.

Then came the attempt to avoid the accusations of dismissing violence, while attempting to minimise the violence to the point where it is effectively 'dismissing violence'.

I said it’s not acceptable, but given the way protests in the USA can and have gone down, I think it’s pretty tone deaf to imply what happened is some new escalation of violence when it is clearly a significant de-escalation of violence.

Then came the specific examples of horrendous violence that resulted in deaths during very large scale protests.

And to somehow make the point that our narrow focus on this one event, and the implications of the past very small scale events where women were speaking at a small rally, was naive and missing the point that violence happens and there is nothing to discuss here.

Let's remember that King Charles III has had eggs thrown at him twice in the past month….what’s your thought on that? attempt at assuring us all that cream pies and an egg or two is absolutely nothing worth discussing. Because What these women experienced could easily have been far worse.

The desired effect is still = there is nothing to see here, these women should fucking think themselves lucky and they and you should all stop talking about it. And preferrably, they should stop. Even King Charles III has had eggs thrown at him. A man with considerable power and considerable political clout is compared to everyday women standing up for women.

Then the attempt to portray some significant misrepresentation about what happened at Tacoma. Because apparently, women should not defend themselves in this poster's eyes. Hey ... what is a bit of spit and intimidation, eh?

But apparently, Im not dismissing any violence btw, Ive said it is all violence. and the greatest violence in Tacoma was done by women. Translation - No... I am not dismissing violence, but .... that woman should not have defended herself because it was only her having a large person walk directly up to her, nearly nose to nose, stare at her for nearly 4 minutes and then spit at her. Not a violent act at all...

Then came these gems

Of course all violence is unacceptable, but, yes I am uncomfortable with your attempt to portray a cream pie and a few eggs by calling it some “new norm” and implying that it is more violent than before- when over a dozen protesters have been killed at USA protests in since Covid, the vast majority of whom have been black men and women.

So.... still denouncing violence, while minimising violent acts against women. Still using the false comparator of large scale protests to minimise these small acts of violence on a thread specifically started to discuss only the events of 'let women speak' and similar, like this one in Oakland.

But now we have a poster politicising race as some kind of gotcha.

It’s a violent country. The women who went are undeniably brave to have gone. Especially the Black woman as the risk to her is far greater over there due to how racist that country is.

Yes, we are fully aware how racist the USA can be and how violent, but this was a protest for women of all backgrounds. And this poster has also made a judgement call on every single one of those 10 - 15 women's racial background.

Talk about hypocrisy writ large.

I am giving you backlash for caring more about white women with cream and egg on them than you care about minority men and women being beaten unconscious or murdered at USA protests. I know you’ll “say” you care about both, but if you actually did you would not have written your opening the posts in such a manner so as to erase these injuries and deaths by pretending cream pies and eggs are a “new norm” that represents higher levels of violence.

No, I do care. But it is very evident that you have decided to build this very fine straw man and burn it to the ground all yourself.

And careful, your continued dismissal thrown in with this new style 'acknowledge that it is violence, but it really isn't' is joined by the fact that you have made the assumptions about the racial background of the women present.

You are the only one here attempting to twist this into a racial discussion because it is pretty clear from the presence of women from different backgrounds that they were not making this protest from a racial point of view.

The desired effect of bring race into this discussion as a gotcha = there is nothing to see here, these women should fucking think themselves lucky and they and you should all stop talking about it. And preferrably, they should stop. Even King Charles III has had eggs thrown at him. A man with considerable power and considerable political clout is compared to everyday women standing up for women. AND now we should be discussing black men and women instead of this small group of 10-15 women of diverse backgrounds because you are racist.

I will stop there because this pivots and the twists are really clear and have become repetitive.

I think I made it clear pages ago what the scope of this thread was. I also have quite clearly stated that I am not sharing my opinions about any other protests or violent acts. Because it is such a huge topic and doing so would, I daresay, render this thread irrelevant. Which is your aim.

When I asked for evidence that comparative like for like events were so violent, you pivoted with 'I’ve not said every protest is met with violence at all. I have said that on average, US protests tend to be more violent than the protest you are pretending was a “new norm” and “of concern” due to “violence” implying what happened at this one protest was far more violent than average..when it is not.'

Fuck... well... how bizarre. I was NOT referring to 'average US protests' on this thread, I was NOT referring to large protests.

I was only ever talking about 'small scale' women speaking events. I doubt that they are in any way near 'average'.

Yet, we as posters have been accused of all sorts of things, including racism I believe.

Dismissal by the degree of minimisation you have done here, still has the impact of dismissing the violence.

Please, engage with the actual topic of the thread.

As I said on your thread. How strange that you used such polarisation on your thread, and here you are attempting a targeted 'proportionality' tactic. But they are just tactics that you are using to get to the same outcome.

These are silencing tactics.

Fantastic analysis, hellofabore.

It's the fake virtue signalling employed in order to construct the strawman that gives it all away. And in a manner that that poster clearly doesn't realise is so blatantly obvious

Using race, mace and the hierarchy of violence and therefore how this doesn't count.

I hadn't realised it was the same poster who tried to make asking a person if they were in the correct toilet, into a attack on them.

Still, I should have realised, the amount of risible hyperbolic crap we've heard on here over the years. Including how we are decimating the tourist industry because no trans person wants to come here 😁

Rather reminiscent of this poster's fevered imaginings, to be honest.

This sort of moving the goal posts, sleight of hand, strawman nonsense, stands absolutely no chance against your forensic unpicking.

Hear, hear. Thanks for laying it all out so clearly and patiently.

The desired effect is still = there is nothing to see here, these women should fucking think themselves lucky and they and you should all stop talking about it.

Indeed.

Let us pray:

'That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.'

Just to bring this tactic and lay it bare.

This is how many ways this poster has rolled out the "dismiss violence by minimising it, even while denying minimising/dismissing it" tactic:

06/12/2022 17:43 "A pie in the face, eggs being thrown, signs snatched are not “going too far” or considered “violence” in a country where other protesters are regularly shot with rubber bullets and some are even shot and killed with real bullets or killed by being rammed by a car or SUV (yes I’m talking about even since 2020, not in the bad old days)."

06/12/2022 22:05 "If it’s a “new norm” for the USA it is actually quite heartening to see compared to killed by gun violence, death by vehicle, water cannons and tear gas."

pivot to now superficially acknowledge violence, while still dismissing it

06/12/2022 22:36 "I said it’s not acceptable, but given the way protests in the USA can and have gone down, I think it’s pretty tone deaf to imply what happened is some new escalation of violence when it is clearly a significant de-escalation of violence."

"I dont know if you have seen Antifa in action before? Usually they’re not coming at you with cream pies and eggs. Usually it’s bricks and glass bottles."

"It’s not wrong to point out these women were actually quite lucky. It could have been much worse."

06/12/2022 23:16 "It’s a bit naive to be pretending that cream pies and an egg or two are some new escalation in violence for the US and women are being targeted with heightened violence and assaults. What these women experienced could easily have been far worse."

and

"Side note: King Charles III has had eggs thrown at him twice in the past month….what’s your thought on that?"

06/12/2022 23:48 "Don’t be ridiculous, you’re only upset because it’s showing the shock & horror over a cream pie and an egg or two, is over-egging things a bit. You can decry violence while putting it into its proper perspective:"

07/12/2022 00:19 "Its all violence, but some violence is objectively worse than other violence so that’s not something I would say."

07/12/2022 10.22 "Im not dismissing any violence btw, Ive said it is all violence.

"It seems you are the only one dismissing violence by firstly neglecting to mention the greatest violence in Tacoma was done by women and when that is pointed out, you then go on to justify this violence because it was done by a woman." (Note: thereby stating that no woman should defend herself against a larger person's spitting after 4 minutes of being intimidated )

07/12/2022 10:50 "Of course all violence is unacceptable, but, yes I am uncomfortable with your attempt to portray a cream pie and a few eggs by calling it some “new norm” and implying that it is more violent than before- when over a dozen protesters have been killed at USA protests in since Covid, the vast majority of whom have been black men and women."

and

"So, yes it is my opinion that it is tone deaf to sit in the U.K. and demand the USA should express moral outrage over a few white women getting some whipped cream and egg yolk on them. The USA doesn’t see anything less than actual bodily harm (mace, punching, hitting) and death as violence. We do, but they do not. They do not count the wounded pride of white women having egg on their face."

and

"Yes, I am giving you backlash for caring more about white women with cream and egg on them than you care about minority men and women being beaten unconscious or murdered at USA protests.".

07/12/2022 16:50. "It was peaceful by US standards as no one was injured."

and

"I am bringing race into it because the optics of your initial posts are tone deaf to imply cream pies and eggs are some “new norm” of heightened violence"

and

"It’s not dismissing violence to state that cream pies and eggs are not as violent as being punched until unconscious, maced, shot and killed or rammed by a car and killed."

and

"one small protest in California met with a cream pie and eggs"

07/12/2022 17:07 "unlike many other peaceful protests, no one was injured or killed."

and

"I’m not saying don’t talk about it, it’s perfectly fine to talk about every protest and what happened at it. It’s ok to condemn all violence and call the cream pie and eggs out as unacceptable. What’s not ok is erasing the injuries and deaths of mostly minority peaceful protesters"

07/12/2022 17:39 "they lobbed food at women."

All because a thread was started about a group of about 10-15 diverse women protesting in California who were attacked while standing silently protesting.

Thanks Arabella and Datun

I must give onnabug high marks for the driving up the hyperbole on this one. I have been posting in between stuff and never quite addressing the fuckwittery that had been dialled up to 11/10 on this thread.

I am adding this post, it is from a sub stack but even if you take out any personal slant on this, the facts about what this male who was being protested in Oakland by these women are grim.

However, the facts are two lesbians, two wives, and their son were brutally murdered.

"three innocents, a white woman and a black woman married to one another and their adopted black son".

This is grim reading people. But if you needed to understand just how horrific the crimes of this male are, I suspect that this will give you some indication.

mandystadtmiller.substack.com/p/rabbitholed-78-dana-rivers-is-the?utm_source=twitter&sd=pf

Thanks for posting that, Helleofabore. I knew that Rivers had written pornographic novels but didn't know the (extremely grim, violent, woman-hating) subject matter until reading this. Shudder.

Extraordinary.

A never ending litany of posts desperately trying to firstly normalise violence against women, and then to stop them talking about it.

What kind of nasty mindset allows someone to think like that?

A masterclass in exposure, hellofabore.

People need to read that, disturbing tho it is.

The man is a disgusting monster, and I, along with many other women, have been waiting for his sentencing for several years now.

The idea that this deranged, woman hating killer could be housed in a facility for women, because he says some magic words, is inhuman.

Even the concept that women protesting this encounter obstruction is fucking extraordinary. It should not be up for question.

I'm full of admiration for the women who have the patience to refute the woman-hating batshittery being barfed over this thread.

At the same time, I really wish that mumsnet would give us a block button. The twitter block function that makes idiots disappear is a wonderful invention, and would have come in handy on this thread.

I also wonder if it isn't time to start a fund that covers the cost of bodyguards for women holding peaceful protests? The woman-hating incels are obviously getting off on battering defenceless women and will only escalate, in the way of all sexual offenders.

It strikes me that if cowardly weasels like those lads in the video knew they'd be pitting their ninja skills against combat trained army veterans, they'd have found excuses to stay in their parent's basements, indulging in their other favoured pastime of wanking furiously to violent pornography.

Those cowardly weasels waited until the women were away from the court house front where there was some security presence, maybe police even. They have been upfront in their tactics.

Good lord. It's astonishing to see the repetitiveness of the posts laid out together. The pivot and the incredibly dishonest bullshit becomes crystal clear.

Thanks, Helleofabore.

What do you think @antelopevalley. Still 100% in agreeance with the views of @Onnabugeisha ?

If so, why?

The trouble is, a block button would create an echo chamber, like the activists managed for a long time on Twitter. It would create a false impression.

Women absolutely need to know that the world contains those who think males battering women is acceptable if the women provoke them by wanting for example not to be raped in prisons to make men happy. They need to know that these views sit on very, very little except repetitive scripts and cannot be justified and debated, and they do come down to a belief in people with penises being far more valuable. They need to know that we are up against men and women who believe that females are walking service animal resources for males and that some of them get their jollies from seeing women harmed, subordinated and hurt.

If we don't know this, if we don't unpick it and understand it, if we don't engage with it and stand up to it, how do we help other women stand up to these appalling sexist views? The threads show, more and more are running across it in their work places. Imagine being the parents of those two poor girls raped at school where everything was covered up. A relative of a raped woman on a hospital ward or in a prison. A friend of a woman who is staying in a relationship where she might be killed so that men can be validated in their chosen identity in women's refuges, even though everyone knows this makes women's refuges inaccessible and exclusionary of many women to be able to revolve entirely around men's needs.

I learned from reading other women far more intelligent than me unpicking and debating here. A block button would be better for my mental health, I'd love to think I lived in a world where there were not those who hate women so much that they cannot believe they are properly servicing men and being socially good unless women are being harmed to prove how inferior they are. But we don't. And we have to face that and deal with it, until there is sufficient humanity and equality that answers are found that work equally for EVERYONE and not just men with interesting identities.

@nilsmousehammer

👏👏👏👏👏👏

Social media's ability to let everyone shout out their own views and back up their allies in public while hiding voices that say things they don't want to hear is what's got society into this mess.

"This mess" being not specifically genderism but the overall trend to extremist positions (left and right) and hatred of people on the "other side".

the overall trend to extremist positions (left and right) and hatred of people on the "other side".

Oh yes.

I find it quite amusing that someone given to this kind of politics would rant and lecture for hours at anyone singing Land of Hope and Glory, would go on and on about Jingoism and nationalism and evils of and how evolved they are past all this - while demonstrating an extreme end of exactly those behaviours and ways of thinking in their own views.

Thank you nils!!

I agree.

I most definitely want to hear differing opinions, I just can’t be arsed with fuckwittery. How else do we develop our ideas further without interrogating them.

That fuckwittery is repeated and I think it is always best to expose the fuckwittery for what it is. Because it means that others can understand the manipulative nature of what they are reading.

When somebody mentioned it earlier this week on another thread, I was very surprised. Because I find blocking an extreme measure for abusive reasons, and not something that a site with the moderation that MN needs. Because MN deletes abuse.

Therefore, on this site it would be used to create an echo chamber. The ridiculousness is, mature adults can always scroll right past if they don’t want to engage with that poster.

Only those who cannot adequately articulate and support their arguments need block buttons. I don’t think many MN FWR regulars are worried about not being able to support their arguments..

I'm in the SF Bay Area and this incident was not covered in any local paper (at least that I've seen). Contrary to a previous poster's assertions, genuinely peaceful protests are in fact the norm here. Go to SF City Hall on any random day of the week and you'll likely see a small group carrying signs and chanting. It's not even typical to see counter protesters and hecklers.

I'm rather disheartened though not surprised that I've only heard about the protest and assault through MN. I believe that this incident was not considered newsworthy because of who the assailants were -- and because the press in CA has turned a blind eye to the issue of men in women's spaces.

Thank you for adding your local point of view, Lilac.

If you haven't already, I encourage you to read the Declaration on Women's Sex-Based Rights, and to sign it if you agree with its articles:

womensdeclaration.com/en/declaration-womens-sex-based-rights-summary/

There are some brave, smart Bay Area women involved with WDI USA.

Thank you Lilac, that was indeed my expectation too. Thank you for confirming that.

I am disappointed, but unsurprised too, that you have not seen coverage about it.